Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 183

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    : I am now going to deal with some
 1very close relationship with Ewald Althans?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is correct, is it not, you said that?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And it is also ----
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     At a given time.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- not something that will be denied, but I want to ask
 8you a few questions about Ewald Althans. To your
 9knowledge, when did I first get to know him?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     In what year?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, may I interrupt again because you
14said something this morning which slightly worried me
15which was that you were not allowed to ask leading
16questions. That is true in strict theory, but in practice
17you can ask leading questions when you are
19 MR IRVING:     In cross-examination I can, my Lord, yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you did realize that? You said something
21this morning which made me think you did not realize.
22 MR IRVING:     But the situation this morning was not exactly
23cross-examination; it was more interrupting Mr Rampton.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, no, you said it in the course of
25cross-examination. I mean, for example, with Althans, it
26will save time if you say you did not meet him until such

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 1and such a date, just say.
 2 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much, my Lord, yes
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Do you accept that I did not meet him until
 4whenever it was?"
 5 MR IRVING (To the witness)     : In that case, Professor Funke, you
 6accept that I first may have met Mr Althans in Canada in
 7March 1989?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is possible that this is the Ewald that I met,
10according to my diary, is that right?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But that I first really got to know him in October 1989?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is very probably.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     From your knowledge ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Very likely.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     From your knowledge of Ewald Althans and his rise and
17fall, was he a very bright student, a very bright person?
18Was he very gifted and intelligent in many ways?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say this. I do not know.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But you said something in the diaries to the account of
22very energetic, and so in any case, whatever the personal
23judgment may be, you co-operated with him.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, let us see who the person was that I co-operated
25with and what he became, shall we? Am I right in saying
26that he spent six months or a year of his life in Israel

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 1for an operation called Operation Atonement, Aktion
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not know that?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No. I did not -- I have to say I read it if it is stated
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you surprised to hear that?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is totally new for me.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kind of young man would go to Israel voluntarily on a
10atonement mission for six months or a year of his life
11aged about 20, as he then was, and seek to make amends for
12what the Nazi had done? Would that be inclined to impress
13you, that kind of young man?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Again I am surprised.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am asking not about Mr Althans now, but about any young
16man ----
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- if he did that. It would tell you something about
19what kind of character he was?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, definitely. I think so.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you accept that people can later on go off the rails,
22they can be led astray, they fall into bad company.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This can happen.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Later on, of course, he did fall into bad company,
25did he not? He made a lot of neo-Nazi acquaintances and
26he undoubtedly turned into a right-wing extremist for a

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 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     At least he turned to a right-wing extremist and, as you
 3say, neo-Nazi.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Now, when he was finally put on trial in Berlin for
 5having taken part in a film, he was sentenced to three and
 6a half years in jail, is that right?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     At least to a big amount and I cannot recall how many
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Do you remember what one element of his defence at
10that trial was which rather surprised the press?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was, as far as I recall, but correct me or others may
12correct me, that he may took side of the State Secret
13authorities of the verwaschungsschultz.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he not claim credibly to have been in the pay of the
15German Security Services for a substantial part of the
16latter part of his political career, that he had been
17acting as an agent for them?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am not very familiar with it, so it would be better
19I have evidence because it is very debated, and I really
20did not get it through what really was at stake and what
21the real, you know, state of affairs in this period, let
22us say, '93, '94 was, so...
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me take it in stages then.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to react on your question very vague.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me take it in stages then. You did hear the newspaper
26reports that Althans had made this very surprising claim?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, I saw it, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any indication or can you remember how long he
 3was taking money from the Security Services?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     He offered to supply ----
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I even do not know if this is the case.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Would he be likely to have made a claim in a court
 8in Berlin that could easily have been refuted by the
 9Public Prosecutor if it was untrue?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was very debated so I cannot comment on that without
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So, in other words, he is a very mysterious
13character, Mr Althans, towards the end of his political
15 MR RAMPTON:     I think it would be important to have a date for
16this particular event because if it occurs after the end
17or near the end of Mr Irving's association with him, with
18Althans, then it, of course, is of no relevance
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The trial was in '94, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, precisely. Unless Mr Irving knew at the time
22when he was in close association with Ewald Althans that
23he was, in effect, a government spy, it is of no relevance
25 MR IRVING:     Then let me put this question to the witness.
26Dr Funke, have you seen correspondence between myself and

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