Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 183

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    No, also the references in what you got, I think, of the
 1so forth.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to hold you up, but if you can find evidence
 3that Worch was involved in the organization of the
 4Lowenbraukeller meeting, then perhaps you can present it
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, is the Lowenbraukeller meeting ----
 7 MR IRVING:     April 21 1990, my Lord. That was the second video
 8that was shown to us today. (To the witness): You
 9estimate there were 800 people in the audience?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say. I was not there.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And all people that were drawn to our attention, the
12person you identified as Michael Kuhnen craning his neck,
13the one without glasses, and Otto Ernst Remer and Manfried
14Reuder, these are the names of people you picked out, they
15were all sitting halfway down the audience, were they, or
16in the middle of the audience?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     They were not wearing nameplates or anything? They had no
19name tags on, did they?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I saw, no.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     These may seem silly questions to you, but I have to ask
22them for obvious reasons. It was the same on the first
23video that was shown at Hagenau. You identified there
24Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel and Mr Worch and somebody you said
25seemed to be Staglich?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And do you agree that I was not visible on any of those
 2shots in which those people were visible. Therefore,
 3there is no indication that I was in the room at the time
 4that they were there or when mr Zundel was making his
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not by this video.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not on this video?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I cannot see because you spoke at the given time and
 9the video is not the last proof if you are at this given
10moment you were in the room, and there is no way to
11identify it 100 per cent.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I beg your pardon for interrupting. Are we
13on the April 1990?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, he went back to Hagenau.
15 MR IRVING:     This is Hagenau, the first video, my Lord,
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     The people pointed out to us were Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel,
19Mr Worch and somebody who "seems to be Staglich". Those
20are the only comments I have to make on the videos which
21were, as I understand it, only introduced or accepted for
22identification, rogues gallery purposes, on this
23occasion. Unless your Lordship has any questions to ask?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do one, yes, is Worch's first name is
26 MR IRVING:     "Christian=".

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There are two Worchs.
 2 MR IRVING:     And his wife is Ursula.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who is Uschi?
 4 MR IRVING:     His wife, Ursula.
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is a shortening or a kind of nickname of Ursula.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am not sure whether you are
 7putting this, are you suggesting you were not there for
 8the whole of the Halle meeting?
 9 MR IRVING:     Yes, my Lord. I am suggesting that I arrived two
10or three minutes before it all began. I got on the back
11of truck, made my 10 minute brief statement to the young
12Germans, got back in my car and got out of it as fast as I
13could being thoroughly aggravated by the whole episode.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Can I say something to that?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, please.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You said two or three minutes before you staged your
18 MR IRVING:     A few minutes before, two or three minutes.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to pinpoint to the fact that it is shown in the
20whole scope of the video, of one of the videos I saw --
21I saw several versions -- that you already met, that
22Mr Irving already met, let us say, half an hour or more
23before a lot of these people who are organizing or with
24organizing who are the main participants of this
25demonstration in the hotel hall where Uschi or Ursula
26Worch and David Irving arrived.

. P-103

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, are we talking about Hagenau or Halle?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So the whole event has to be taken into account and not
 3only the five or 10 minutes speech during the
 4demonstration. It has also to be taken into consideration
 5the surrounding minutes before Mr Irving spoke.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Are you talking about Halle now?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I thought so.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me. 9th November '91.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am bound to say, I do not know whether you looked at the
11diary entry, did you?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Because that appears to show Mr Irving arriving at 2 p.m.
14and leaving at 5 p.m.?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
16 MR IRVING:     2.00 and 5.00, yes?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not 10 minutes.
18 MR IRVING:     Let me put this question.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Three hours.
20 MR IRVING:     Well, I was talking actually about the meeting
21place which is a different part of the town. Perhaps I
22can be more specific by cross-examination. The hotel that
23you referred to where these meetings apparently took
24place, was that one or two miles away from where the truck
25was parked, if I can put it like that, where the speech
26was made?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That can be. I am not informed about the site. It is
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that I think explains that, my Lord, that I arrived
 4at the hotel. I remember meeting Martin Bell there and
 5people like that, and I then went over shortly before the
 6speech, made the speech and then got out of it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not want to get bogged down on one diary
 8entry, but that is not, perhaps, the way it reads to me.
 9It says: "Arrived at 2 p.m. I spoke first".
10 MR IRVING:     Yes, as is visible.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "10 or 15 minutes". That takes you to 2.20,
122.15, 2.20, and you left at 5 p.m.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, what I said is not incompatible with the
14diary entry, but probably cross-examination by Mr Rampton
15is a proper place to bring that out ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may be right actually.
17 MR IRVING:     --- if I can be so bold as to say that.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Anyway, you press on.
19 MR IRVING:     But I have an answer for everything, if I can say
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I would not put it quite that way.
22 MR IRVING (To the witness)     : I am now going to deal with some
23of the names that you mentioned, and I am now taking them
24out of sequence out of your report purely because you
25brought these names to the front in the
26examination-in-chief this morning. You say that I had a

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