Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 159

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    -- it was not challenged so I can recite it for you, he
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, you have almost answered the question yourself, it
 3is the transports from East to the West.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is my job.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not in re-examination.
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I would not describe this as a -- of course, I would not
 7describe this as a movement from West to East.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Can we turn to the page from Gotz Aly's book
 9"Endlosen"? I hope you have it there somewhere. I have
10it in English. You have probably got it in ----
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have it in English, yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have it in English?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The English will do, it seems to me. I hope you have the
15longer version, the one we had last week, because I, first
16of all, want to draw your attention to the last paragraph.
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Which page is that?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is page 275, Mr Irving tells us.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     175 -- sorry, no, I beg your pardon.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     175 or?
21 MR RAMPTON:     Of Gotz Aly's book?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     175 -- you have the German version there?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have the English version here.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, you do?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have not so...
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it page 175, I think?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It is page 175, I think. Use the bound copy,
 4Dr Longerich.
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     You are referring to the Furl letter?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I have it here.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Before we look at the text of Furl's letter or the bit we
 9have there, can we look at the next succeeding paragraph
10which begins "Also in the summer of 1942"?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Also in the summer of 1942, the Germans transported 3,000
13Jews from the eastern Galician town of Droyobic", that is
14an attempt by me, "to the Belzec death camp. Here too
15they used the excuse that the deportees were needed for
16reclamation of the Pripyat Marshes". Do you know where
17that place "Droyobic" is?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is East, as far as I remember, it is East of the Belzec
19death camp.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are right. Then look at the text of Furl's letter.
21Ignore the first sentence. "We provide first aid", or it
22might be some other meaning of that, it does not matter,
23"and give them more or less provisional accommodation and
24usually deport them further towards the White Sea to the
25White Ruthenian marsh lands where they all", and then we
26will leave out the next bit, "will be gathered by the end

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 1of the war but not without having first built a few roads
 2(but we are not supposed talk about it)". Do you know of
 3any evidence, Dr Longerich, that there were any transit
 4camps in the White Ruthenian Marshes?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the way to the White Sea, which is, we observed this
 7morning, right up in the north of Russia?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know of any train schedules showing trains going
10from Cracau or Auschwitz or Warsaw or Lublin to the
11Ruthenian Marshes?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Any orders for lorry loads of Jews to be taken to those
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Any evidence that the Jews were used to build roads into
17that area of Russia?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the light of that and all the other evidence we have
20just looked at, how likely does it seem to you that we
21should take this little piece of whatever it is from Herr
22Furl to his SS chums in Berlin seriously?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Absolutely irrelevant on a reconstruction of the events.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Now I want to go to another related topic,
25but, in a sense, slightly separate and those are the
26documents that Mr Irving produced last week about trying

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 1to keep the illness down in some of the camps so as to
 2preserve the population level. Do you remember those
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I remember them.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got those here?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The one I would like you to look at first is dated 28th
 8December 1942. It is from Oranienburg.
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not think I have it here at the moment. This is
10concerning the doctors?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The doctor's letter, yes.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not have it in front of me unfortunately.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is headed SS. Then there is a very long German word.
14What does that long German word mean?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This means economy administration main office.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. Who is in charge of that?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is Pohl.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did Pohl have any responsibility or jurisdiction over the
19extermination programme?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     As far as the extermination programme was carried out in
21his camps, so it is not for the camps of the Aktion
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was going to be my next question. His camps being
24those which had workers in them?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Like slave labour?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am a bit lost. Pohl was in charge of what
 3you might call labour camps?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     He was head of the SS
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, and there is Ampsgruppe D, this is the subdepartment
 7concentration camps, this is a subdepartment, if you want
 8to say that. He was in charge of all the concentration
 9camps, and concentration camps, the Aktion Reinhardt
10camps, are different type of camps.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Concentration as opposed to death camp?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON:     If we look at the abbreviations in paragraph
14numbered one, lager doctors of the concentration camps,
15the camp doctors of the concentration camps, then we have
16a whole list of abbreviations, including Auschwitz and a
17number of others, do you see any reference there to any of
18the Reinhardt camps, Treblinka, Sobibor or Belzec?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You told us last week that the reference to Lublin would
21be a reference to Maidonek?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which did have a working facility?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How many of the Reinhardt camps were operating at the end
26of December 42?

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