Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 159

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     But not in the Eastern territories?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What was the position, as far as they were concerned? Is
 5there any evidence one way or the other?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am sorry. I am not sure whether I could follow the
 7question.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think you have not followed the
 9question. Perhaps I did not put it very clear.
10 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, perhaps I could deal with it?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, all right, do.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Undoubtedly I see the question that your Lordship
13has asked. Himmler's letter to Berger deals with the Jews
14in the occupied Eastern territories, in other words,
15Russia?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And they have to be cleared by the end of the year?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These trains which we are talking about here in the letter
20from Guntz Muller to Wolff are not Russian Jews at all?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, this is the Generalgouvernement, Poland.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the General government?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And they are going variously in, one might think, rather
25large numbers from Warsaw, this place Premisul, and so on
26and so forth, to the three Reinhardt camps?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor, are they not?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My question is where were they going?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, they would be deported to these camps, to the
 6extermination camps, and would be killed there.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know of any evidence that any of those three camps
 8was at any time a work camp?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, this is particularly, these were particular
10extermination camps, very small camps, only one purpose,
11to kill as many people as possible in a very short time.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That does not though actually quite meet the
13point that I was trying to put. I will try again.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it does partially. We are concerned in
16this aspect of the case really very much with what Hitler
17knew and authorized. You have been taken through a series
18of documents which you have given evidence establishes to
19your satisfaction at least that Hitler did order Himmler
20to free the Ostgebiet of Jews by, as Mr Rampton says, the
21end of December 1942.
22     My question really related to the vastly greater
23number of Jews who were at that time in the area of the
24General Government, and what I was really seeking to ask
25you is do you have any knowledge of any documents or are
26there any inferences that one can draw as to what Hitler

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 1said, if anything, about what was to be the fate of the
 2Jews in the General Government?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We do not have the same document for the General
 4Government. We have this document for the 28th July, but
 5not a comparable document for the Jews of the
 6Generalgouvernement. So we are relying here on a
 7construction, a reconstruction, of events and, as
 8Mr Rampton has, I think, lead me through these documents,
 9it is clear that we have a number of important meetings
10between Himmler and Hitler, and right after these meetings
11Hitler, sorry, Himmler gave the order to make the
12Generalgouvernement of Judenfrager until the end of the
13year. So we do not have the same kind of documentation
14for the Generalgouvernement.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, there is, of course, the 22nd September
161942 handwritten document, "Judenfrage dies wie wir
17weiterfahren", how shall we continue, "Auswanderung", the
18Himmler and Hitler plan, 108.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I appreciate you say they were going to be
20dealt with differently, but, I mean, can I ask the
21question that was in my mind anyway to ask, which is would
22you think that it is a legitimate inference or not from
23the fact that there was an expressed Hitler order in
24relation to the Jews in the Ostgebiet that may be the
25position was in some way different with regards to the
26Jews who were to the West of them?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, we only have this, we have this reference by Himmler
 2by chance because he wrote this letter to Berger. We have
 3not, we have not got the full correspondence of Himmler,
 4so it is impossible to answer this question really.
 5 MR IRVING:     The note I referred to is page 274 of this blue
 6bundle.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I do not want to be -- for once in my life, I will
 9not be diverted if it is all right.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It was not intended to be a diversion.
11 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, no, by Mr Irving, I meant. It was not
12intended as a diversion, of course not, but I will not go
13to that document at the moment.
14 MR IRVING:     I was trying to be helpful.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I meant that was not intended to be a
16diversion by me which you may or may not accept.
17 MR RAMPTON:     No, it has not been in the very slightest because
18it leads to this question (and I have not quite finished
19Dr Longerich on this area of the evidence) does it not,
20here you have apparently on the contemporaneous evidence a
21series of meetings between Himmler and Hitler, and you
22have really a massive logistical operation underway,
23taking thousands, literally thousands, of Jews every week
24from various parts of the General Government to these
25three camps which are not work camps. I ask the question
26again. As a matter of inference (and it is inference

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 1because we do not have the comparable document for the
 2General Government) do you think it likely or not that
 3Hitler knew because Himmler told him what was happening?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is very likely.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In your mind, does it matter one way or the other whether
 6Himmler said to Hitler: "This is what I am going to do,
 7Adolf" and Adolf said, "Yes, it is sounds a jolly good
 8idea" or whether Adolf said to Heinrich, "Heinrich, this
 9is what you have got to do"? Does it matter?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I think there was a high degree of consensus among
11them, so I do not think it really -- it does not change
12the question of responsibility.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we then turn to one of Mr Irving's documents? I pause
14to remind you of this, before we get to Mr Irving's Furl
15letter, in the report of Professor Browning which I expect
16you have read, have you ----
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- it was not challenged so I can recite it for you, he
19tells us that at this time and after this time, Jews,
20train loads of Jews, were coming westwards to Belzec from
21Lemberg or Lewolf, westwards from Kolemeer, which is
22southeast of Lewolf by a long way, 225 kilometres, to
23Belzec and from Bialystok westwards to Treblinka. Does
24that help you assess what kinds of places these might have
25been? Does it help you to assess the question whether
26they might have been transit camps leading further to the

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