Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 159

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    Do you take this document to be an indication that Himmler
 1there were left in the occupied Eastern territories by
 2this date, do you?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Definitely several hundred thousand.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, presumably, they have got to go -- how Far East had
 5the German Army got by this date?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, this was in summer 1942, they were in their, I think
 7just started their summer offensive so they were quite,
 8I mean, advanced, so they had large parts of Ukrainia, for
 9instance, under their control.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And they were pushing out as far as Koursk and Stalingrad,
11were they not?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In due course?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So there would have been plenty of room behind them to
16which to transport all the remaining Jews of the occupied
17Eastern territories, would there not?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you know of no evidence that it ever happened?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we compare for a moment what Himmler wrote in that
22letter about the very difficult order that the Fuhrer had
23laid on his shoulders with what Mr Irving relies on as
24evidence of the truth, the historical truth, which is what
25Karl Wolff told Dr , I cannot remember, was it Fiegler or

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Ziegler.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ziegler?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Ziegler, sorry.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Von Ziegler in 1952. Have you still got that German of
 5that document ----
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I hope so.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- with you? It is on page 5 of the German and, my Lord,
 8it is the fifth page of the English under the square
 9bracket 00032. Do you mind if I use the English of
10Mr Irving?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not have the -- I could not find the...
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do not have the document. I am sorry.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are we going to put this?
14 MR RAMPTON:     Day 2, tab 11, my Lord. 14A the page number is.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That will do.
16 MR RAMPTON:     It is one of the documents that was passed up this
17morning, I think. It is only short. In your German
18version, Dr Longerich, it is the second paragraph on page
195 with page numbers at the top. It is the sentence which
20begins "es war im August 1942". Do you have that? Page 5
21at the top or 00032 at the bottom.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry, the German sentence begins?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The German sentence begins "es war im August 1942".
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I have the German sentence.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you got that?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you mind if I read out the English?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But do follow it in the German because you can check the
 4translation at the same time if you want. "Around August
 5942 GW", that is?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     General Wolff.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     General Wolff, yes, I thought his name was Karl, I must
 8say, "... General Wolff undertook drive from the Fuhrer's
 9headquarters to Berlin. He found Himmler there in a state
10of deep depression. To General Wolff's questions as to
11what was up, Hitler dropped dark and vague hints. Wolff
12could have no idea what one had had to take upon oneself
13for the Messiah of the next 2000 years" -- we can say that
14is Hitler, can we not?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "... in order that this man remained personally free of
17sin. He, the Reichsfuhrer, was beyond mortal help. For
18the sake of the German people and its Fuhrer, he had had
19to burden things on to his own shoulders of which nobody
20must ever be allowed to learn". If you have to choose
21between a postwar interrogation of Karl Wolff, which
22resulted in that account, and the letter which Heinreich
23Himmler wrote to Berger at the time in 1942, which source
24do you prefer?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I would prefer contemporary documents like this source.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, finally, there is one other document in here that

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 1I would like you to look at. It is the next document on
 2from the Himmler to Berger in the main blue file?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is part of the same sequence,
 4Mr Rampton, is it?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It is, my Lord.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because I want to ask something after you
 7have finished.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Absolutely. Then I am coming to the Furl letter
 9in a moment. Do you see that this is some kind of a copy
10of a letter written by somebody called Guntzen Muller to
11Karl Wolff on the same day, 28th July 1942, is it?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that it is in front of me.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does it recount that 5,000 Jews are going every day from
14Warsaw to Treblinka and twice a week 5,000 from a place
15whose name I cannot pronounce, it is something like
16"Schimmel" to Belzec?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Premisul(?) to Belzec, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To Belzec. So that is a total of 45,000 a week, you can
19take it from me, at that time. That has been going on,
20has it not, since 22nd July 1942? Yes?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, this is clear from this letter.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then does the last part of the letter tell us that in due
23time, I think in October, transports will go from Warsaw
24via Lublin to Sobibor?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. They do not tell us in what quantities, do they?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, because they are just working on the track, on the
 2railway track.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the track, yes. The transports are held up from the
 4track. But assume for a moment that that little
 5collection of documents is evidence of a massive
 6extermination programme underway at the General Government
 7and in the occupied Eastern territories, that Himmler is
 8in charge of it, and we have seen the contacts between
 9Himmler and Hitler during this time. How credible does it
10seem to you that Hitler, Himmler's old chum, Hitler, did
11not know what was going on?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I find this absolutely incredible that he should not
13have known that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask you a question because I am a
15bit puzzled at the moment. Your evidence is that the
16order that Hitler gave Himmler related to the Jews in the
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And they accounted for, I think you said, about 600,000
20out of about two and a half million?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The thing that is slightly going through my mind at the
23moment is, well, that leaves a bit of question mark over
24the remaining, whatever it is, 1.9 million.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry, you are referring to?
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     To the Jews who were in the General Government?

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