Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition
Pages 81 - 85 of 159
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1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is an order from Himmler?
3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, now let us see what happened next, if we may. If
5you turn over the page to 258, I think it is, there is
6another entry, I hope, from the Dienst calendar for
7Saturday, 25th July '42, is there? 259. I am sorry. My
8numbering has gone wrong again. 259. There we see
9that -- I do not know where Hagelvalt or Eichenhan are.
10Hagelvalt is where he lives, is it not, Himmler?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, they now moved to their new headquarters in
12Ukrainia, as far as I know. So the Hagelvalt is still the
13code word for Himmler's own headquarters, but he edits
14this Eichenhan to make sure that this is not the same
15headquarters in Eastern Prussia.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] We can see it is a two hour journey. Then once again he
17has a meal with Hitler. Then there is another of these
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, Hagelvalt is some sort of fairly
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Sorry, maybe I made mistake here. Hagelvalt is the code
22word for his old headquarters in East Prussia and
23Eichenhan is, as far as I know, the new code name for his
24new headquarters in Ukrainia. So I think he moved at this
25date, he moved from ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Hagelvalt to Eichenhan?
1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have to say I am not sure whether Hagelvalt is still the
2code word for the old headquarter or whether the new
3headquarter has the same name, is also cold Hagelvalt.
4I am not sure, I have to say, at the moment.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, he has lunch with Hitler?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
7 MR RAMPTON: He has lunch with Hitler afterwards?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, sorry, again Hagelvalt is his headquarter. It has the
9old name Hagelvalt. He was kept, so Hagelvalt is
10Himmler's headquarter. It was near Wolfschanze, now it is
11near Schitomeir(?) ----
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] So it is a name he just carries around with him?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, as far as I can see it.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] He is a bit like Macbeth's enemies, he goes with burning
15wood on his head, as it were?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] You may not ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not a particularly close analogy.
19 MR RAMPTON: It is a wood, I think.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, I see. Then after he has had lunch with Hitler, he
22has a discussion or a meeting with Bormann and Speer.
23What precisely was Speer's jurisdiction at this date?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Speer was the Ministry for Armament, armament and
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then if you turn over two pages, please, three days after
1that meeting with Hitler, we find, do we not, a document
2that we glanced at this morning, I hope, a letter which is
3taken off a microfilm of 28th July 1942 from Himmler to
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who was Berger?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Berger was the head of the SS Hauptamt, SS main office.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] The second sentence says: "The occupied Eastern
9territories will be Jew free", does is it not? Yes?
10Second sentence [German] -- third. Have I miscounted?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The third sentence.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, this is in the first paragraph, the third sentence:
13"The occupied Eastern territories will be free of Jews".
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes. "The carrying out of this very hard order
15has been placed on my shoulders by the Fuhrer". Is that
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you think of a reason why if this operation merely
19involved transporting large numbers of Polish Jews to, let
20us say, nice work camps in the White Ruthenian Marshes or
21the Pripyat Marshes, if they are not the same thing,
22should have seemed to Himmler to be sehr schwer befehr?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No, this would not be exceptional because he was
24responsible for large resettlements of millions of people
25the years before, so this was not exceptional for him.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] It would have been a routine administrative operation,
1would it not?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The limited order though, correct me if I am
4wrong, Dr Longerich, which you said related only to the
5Pripyat Marshes was the instructions about driving the
6women into the swamps, was it not?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, this has to be seen in the context of an operation of
8this SS ----
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- fragen.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] But that was a year earlier, was it not?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This was in '41, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] That was in August '41?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] And it did not succeed because the women would not sink,
16is that not right?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, this is one of the officers reported back ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is right.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- they could not do it because the ----
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] The second SS cavalry regiment.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- swamps were not deep enough.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] The water was not deep enough?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was your reference to the Pripyat Marshes
25that made me think back to...
26 MR RAMPTON: I know, but I am coming to the White Ruthenian
1Marshes in a moment which I think are the same thing,
2though I am open to correction on that.
3 MR IRVING: Can we ask what the witness thinks is meant by
4the phrase "die Bedesten Ostgebiet"?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes. "die Bedesten Ostgebiet" are the occupied Eastern
6territories. This is, in the terminology of this time,
7the occupied Soviet territories, including the territories
8the Soviet Union had annexed between 1939 and 1941. So
9the Baltic states, and so on.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But excluding the General Government?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Normally, the terminology is, "Bedesten Ostgebiet" means
12the Soviet territories, not the Generalgouvernement.
13 MR RAMPTON: Do you know of any evidence -- this is getting a
14little bit of ahead of myself but I may as well deal with
15this part of it first -- Dr Longerich, whether eyewitness
16testimony or contemporaneous documents, whether clear or
17needing interpretation, that speak of large scale
18transports or deportations of Jews from the occupied
19Eastern territories further East?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] At this stage, no.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] As a matter of practical reality, is there any evidence
22that it happened?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you take this document to be an indication that Himmler
25found the -- I think I have asked this already -- the
26administrative task of, I do not know how many Jews that
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