Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 159

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    Next day, which is again a Saturday, 18th, he goes from
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where he meets Kruge, Globocnik and somebody called
 4Schelenberg. Is Schelenberg a significant figure in this
 5story or not?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Schelenberg was, as far as I am aware, head of the
 7Auslans, the special espionage service of the SDs -- thank
 8you very much.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn over the page we see a family photograph on
10the left-hand side of these people actually in the
11Stammlager at Auschwitz. Then the right-hand side at
129 o'clock in the evening he meets with Kruge Pohl who is
13head of the concentration camp system, right?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, Kruge is the SS and police leader of the
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, right. So he is the SS -- and what position is
17Globocnik then?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, Globocnik is the SS and police leader, so the man
19who has the overall responsibility for the SS of police
20forces in the district of Lublin.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of Lublin. So Kruge is Globocnik's superior?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, the highest SS police leader.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But Pohl is there in a different capacity because he is
24the head of the concentration camp system, is that right?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And so we come to the 19th over the page, 252, I think

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 1I am on, but I may be wrong.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     53.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Sunday 19th, he goes to Travniki. What happened
 4at Travniki?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     At this day?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, 8.30 in the morning on Sunday 19th?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, this it says: "Inspection of a schutzmanschaft
 8battalion. This is an auxiliary police battalion. So we
 9know that this Travniki men were used as guards in
10concentration camps -- in particular in extermination
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So was it, in effect, a training sort of establishment?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then he goes back to Lublin in the evening and at
158 o'clock he has a meal with Globocnik and what is the
16abbreviation "NSCHL"?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Bottom part of the page, [German- document not provided]
19Globocnik and then "Anschleisen"?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, Anschleisen, after that.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then there is a meeting or a conversation is it?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, followed by "versprechen" is a ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Discussion?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- meeting yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With Kruge and somebody called Rickert?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then on Monday, finally, on Monday 20th, he leaves at half
 2past 12 midday back for Berlin, is that right?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     From Lublin?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then if you turn over, please, to page, I think it is 254
 7or 53/54, this is taken from the second part of your
 8report, a letter that Himmler wrote, apparently, to Kruge
 9on 19th July while he was still in Lublin. Do you see
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you look at the German for us, please?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is in a printed document. It does not matter what
15it is because there is no dispute about this letter. He
16says: "I order that the umsiedlung which literally
17translated means what?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Literally "resettlement".
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, "of the whole of the Jewish population of the General
20Government shall be ended by 31st -- carried out and ended
21by 31st September 1942", is that right?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do you take the word "umsiedlung" in that context.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, in this context, also dealt with in the glossary,
25I think, it is quite clear that, it is absolutely clear,
26sorry, that the term "umsiedlung" means in this sense the

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 1murder, the killing.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why should it not mean deportation further
 3East from the General Government?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Because it is clear from other sources that in this
 5context the term "umziedlung" is used as a camouflage word
 6for "killing". And also we know then what happened after
 7the 19th July. The systematic programme to kill the Jews
 8of the General Government started particularly in this
10 MR RAMPTON:     With a heavy prod from his Lordship, you have got
11ahead of where I want to be because I am coming to that.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No. It is important that this little narrative is
14done in blocks because it does tell a tale when one has
15been through it with care. Could you translate for us
16(because it is not in the text that you have translated in
17your report) could you with the help of your interpreter,
18if you need it, the second paragraph in this letter from
19Himmler to ----
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, the paragraph that starts with "mit dem".
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, that is it.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, "After the 31st" ----
23 THE INTERPRETER:     By 31st?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     "By 31st December 1942, no person of Jewish origin is
25allowed to stay in the Generalgouvernement".
26 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     "The only exception -- unless that they are in the
 2sammlager, collective camps, sammlager".
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be "transit", I do not know.
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, not "transit".
 5 MR RAMPTON:     "Collection"?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Collection, collection camps, I would say. "Sammer" in
 7German means "collection".
 8 MR IRVING:     "Assembly"?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     "Assembly" is a very good translation. "Assembly", yes,
10thank you, "assembly camps in Warsaw, Krakau ... Lublin.
11All other ----
12 THE INTERPRETER:     "All other work volume"?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     "... work volume which employ Jewish labour have to be
14ended by this date or if the completion is not possible,
15they have to be moved into one of the assembly camps, the
16labour assignments or labour", what did we say?
17 THE INTERPRETER:     The workforce?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, "workforce", yes.
19 MR RAMPTON:     If I have understood it correctly, all the Jews of
20the General Government, about how many people are we
21talking about at this date, July '42?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In '42, we are talking about roughly 1.9 million.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And with the exception of some that are in the assembly
24camps and will be put to work, all the Jews, the 1.9
25million, have got to be resettled, whatever that may mean,
26by the end of the year?

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