Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 159

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    Dr Longerich, I have some questions. It may take
 1little intricate. I think on last Wednesday you gave us a
 2description, in general terms, of the relationship between
 3Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler as you saw it. Do you
 4remember doing that?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I remember that.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you told us really, in essence, this, the idea that
 7Hitler did not know about the systematic extermination
 8which was being carried out by Himmler and the SS was, to
 9use your words, absolutely absurd.
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you remember saying that?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would like to expand on that a little bit, if I may?
14How often on average during the war years did Hitler and
15Himmler meet?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, we have a quite clear picture from the Dienst
17calendar, so I think they met at least once a week,
18probably more.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How long had they known each other?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They knew each other since at least 1923.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Himmler was part of the 1923 Putsch, was he not?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, indeed.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What was the date of Himmler's appointment as Reichsfuhrer
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is 1929.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And as to the antlosen of the Judenfrager, can you give us

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 1some dates for Himmler's acquisition of jurisdiction over
 2the solution of that question, if necessary, by reference
 3to different parts of Europe.
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, jurisdiction ----
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Jurisdiction. The SS were ultimately responsible for
 6carrying out the Final Solution, is that right?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did Himmler always have complete jurisdiction over this
 9question or did he have to fight for it?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. The jurisdiction for the responsibility for the
11Jewish question, or so-called Jewish question, or
12jurisdiction, laid first with the Minister of Interior and
13he had in a way to get this responsibility on board. He
14had to fight for it. There is an entry in the Dienst
15calendar at the end of 1940: "Judenfrager [German]". So
16you can see here that there was a kind of struggle going
17on between him and the traditional administration in
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And was it resolved in his favour or not?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I think it is clear from 1942 onwards that it was
21resolved in his favour.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You give that date because of the speech
23about this "heavy responsibility being put on my
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. The difficulty is -- it is difficult to answer this
26question because you get this impression from his entries

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 1in the Dienst calendar from speeches, and it is not easy
 2to say, you know, the formal responsibility for the Jewish
 3question, you know, was when this was taken over by
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Was there any stage at which Hitler had, as it
 6were, to arbitrate jurisdiction as between Himmler and
 7other people such as the Reichs Commissarts and people
 8like that?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think you can -- it is quite clear throughout 1940
10and 1942 that Hitler was engaged with this question.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I want to take July 1942 as a particular illustration, if
12I may, of what you were telling us last Wednesday. Can
13you take the blue bundle and turn to page 247, please?
14Here you should find copied -- you may need to turn the
15file round -- a run of entries from the Dienst calendar.
16Have you got 247? It should be an entry for 11th July
171942. It may be my page numbering is a little bit -- that
18is right, is it?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we have translations of this or is it not
21really necessary?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Is it what, sorry?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Translations or not necessary?
24 MR RAMPTON:     It is not necessary. They are very simple entries
25-- even I can manage! If anybody should want to deal
26with the footnotes, that is different, but I am not

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 1bothered with them at the moment. Sonnabend which in
 2those days was German for Saturday, was it not?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sonnabend is Saturday, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is still Saturday?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     11th July 1942. He makes a journey after 12.30 to the
 7Fuhrer headquarters. It does not matter where they are
 8for the moment. Do you know which headquarters Hitler
 9would have been at at that date?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think he is still in Wolfschanze.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And he has a meal, presumably we could call it lunch, at
122 o'clock with the Fuhrer?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And if you turn over two pages to 249, on 14th July, which
15is Tuesday, he speaks to Wolff on the telephone and then
16-- this is the left-hand column -- at 12.30 he goes to
17the Fuhrer headquarters, yes?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And again at 2 o'clock they have a meal together?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And they have a conversation, or Himmler does, with
22General Thomas and SS Oberfuhrer Werlin. Who were they?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, General Thomas is the head of the wehrmacht armament
24department and Werlin, if I am not mistaken, is head of
25Daimler Benz company.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is an industrialist?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, with an SS rank.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then if you turn over the page once more, I do not know
 3what the page number is, 250 might it be? I do not know.
 4Do you see Friday, 17th July 1942?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The right-hand column. He goes from Berlin to Catovitz in
 7Upper Silesia, do you see that?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then he meets Gauleiter Bracht who is the Gauleiter of
10what area?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Of Silesia.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of Silesia, and some people called Schmaze Kasen Vogel,
13but also Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And after that he goes to Auschwitz, does he not?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is true, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And he stays in Auschwitz until later on that day when he
18goes and has a meal with the Fuhrer Heim -- that is not
19Hitler, that is the ----
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, that is the ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is the local man, is it not?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Bracht and he spends the evening with Gauleiter Bracht?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Next day, which is again a Saturday, 18th, he goes from
26Auschwitz to Catovitz and he goes from there to Lublin,

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