Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 159

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     One day later?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     One day later.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it possible that the reason why Hitler compares Hungary
 4with Slovakia is because Hitler does not know what is
 5happening in Slovakia, is that possible?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, that is impossible. It simply defies reason that
 7Hitler at this stage in '43 does not know what is
 8happening in extermination camps.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     April 1943?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     So everything is camouflage, illogical, defies reason, yet
12it all seems to be in the same direction; there is this
13parallel version of history, is there not?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, there is no parallel ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is your version, there is the German consensus among
16modern German historians and there is this alternative
17version which is suggested by quite a few documents.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I tried to explain that the Nazis in a systematic
19way tried to build up a system of camouflage. This is, of
20course, sometimes reflected in written documents as this
21one here, for instance. There is no alternative history.
22I think it is -- if one analyses these documents in a
23careful and systematic way, one can separate the
24camouflage language from actually their real intentions
25and their real aims.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the only last ----

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to ask you this (and I think
 2I have asked you before and I have forgotten the answer),
 3the Hungarians Jews were not in the end handed over, were
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They were handed. In 1944 they were handed over one year
 7 MR RAMPTON:     450,000 of them were sent to Auschwitz.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is the evidence ----
 9 MR RAMPTON:     In 1944.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is the evidence there that they were killed
11at Auschwitz, that they were gassed?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, the evidence is there.
13 MR RAMPTON:     It was called the Hungarian action and 450,000
14Hungarian Jews, by which time Hungary had been invaded by
15the Nazis and Horthy put on one side, they were gassed at
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to have asked that question. I
18forgot ----
19 MR RAMPTON:     In the summer of 1944.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In the next, in the meeting which actually, the meeting
21actually which preceded the German invasion of Hungary in
221944, Hitler had literally, you know, threatened Horthy
23with really physical force. Actually, his life was in
24danger in 1944. So this was the moment when he more or
25less had to agree that actually, yes, the Germans were
26invading his country and the deportation programme was

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 1then started after that.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have not referred to the Hungarian episode in your
 3expert report, have you?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think only in a very short way in the second report, the
 5systematic character.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not really see any need to cross-examine you on that,
 7unless his Lordship wishes me?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, is it contentious that the Hungarian
 9Jews were----
10 MR IRVING:     Certainly on that scale, my Lord. If you ask
11Mr Rampton to explain how one could liquidate 450,000 Jews
12in three weeks, your Lordship will see part of the
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not asking you him do that, but I am
15asking you whether there is a dispute. The answer is yes
16as to numbers.
17 MR IRVING:     The answer is yes.
18     My final question is that if Adolf Hitler was
19really bent on exterminating all the Jews, then are you
20aware of his conference with Antonescue at about the same
21time as the conference with Horthy ----
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Mm-mm.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- in April 1943? This is related in a book by Seymour
24Finger who has written a book called "American Jewry
25during the Holocaust". It is document NG 5049 which is a
26Nuremberg document.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not have it in front of me.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     But in this record of the talk between Hitler and
 3Antonescue, Hitler approved a proposal to permit 70,000
 4Jewish children to leave Rumania to travel to Palestine.
 5Are you familiar with that episode?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not familiar with this particular episode, but I know
 7that during the end of the war it is quite common that
 8Hitler made exceptions and he allowed groups of Jews to
 9leave his...
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is April 1943?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not the end of the war, is it?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the height of what you would describe as the
15homicidal Final Solution, and yet here is Hitler, the man
16at the top?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes -- sorry.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Is it not interesting that it actually needed his personal
20approval to save these relatively small groups of Jews,
21you know, from the extermination programme? One had to go
22to Hitler if one wanted to save a group of Jews. We have
23presented earlier in those proceedings, you have presented
24a document actually where Goring complained that he had to
25go to Hitler to save two Jewish scientists from the
26deportations. So it shows you this complete and total

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 1will of extermination. One had to go to Hitler actually
 2to ask him for his permission to exempt a single or a
 3group of Jews from deportations and death.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of course, Hitler's name would cut through any red tape,
 5would it not?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 7 MR IRVING:     I have no further questions, I do not think.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have timed it very well.
 9 MR IRVING:     It was not done with that in mind, my Lord. It is
10literally I have no further questions.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, thank you very much. Mr Rampton, would
12you rather re-examine after the adjournment?
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it probably would be less fragmentary if
14I start after the adjournment.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is what I would have thought. So
16shall we say 5 to 2?
17 (Luncheon Adjournment)
18Dr Longerich, Recalled
19< Re-Examined by Mr Rampton QC.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I have seen the correspondence
21with Harry Counsel and that seems to have sorted that
22problem out.
23 MR IRVING:     Yes. Thank you, my Lord.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good. Yes, Mr Rampton?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Dr Longerich, I have some questions. It may take
26a little bit of time because some of the topics are a

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