Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 159

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Just a moment.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have it. Thank you very much.
 3 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will remember that we were looking at
 4the reasons why they wanted the Hungarians to take steps
 5against the Jews. I was invited to produce evidence that
 6there were reasons. Also, I have translated rather more,
 7in other words, than was put into the expert reports.
 8Does your copy have the German original?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am sorry, I do not find the copy at the moment. I am
10sure you gave it to me.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks like this. It is headed "Horthy
12conference with Hitler". Is there a spare? Yes, there is
13a spare coming up.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 MR IRVING:     Does it have the German original attached to it at
16the end?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, it is not the original, it is ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Hilgruber text?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am only going to rely on a few words there. Eight lines
21down, we have ----
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In your translation or in the original?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the translation. "Germany was standing today with her
24morale firm because she had removed the Jews of which even
25those remaining would also soon have vanished to the
26East." That is Hitler talking. Is that an accurate

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 1translation of the words used in the original?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, let us look at the original.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the last line.
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Which page?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Six lines down on page 240. "Vanished to the East [German
 6- document not provided]".
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     OK. Of course, you would probably say "to the East" is
 9just camouflage, would you?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, what is happening here is that Hitler tries to
11persuade Horthy to hand over his Jews and he would not
12actually say in this conversation, "Actually we are going
13to kill them" because it is an official visit, they are
14minutes, and Hitler would have avoided that. In these
15minutes you find the term, you know, "We are going to kill
16them in the East". He would use this phrase "They
17vanished to the east".
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is pressure not actually being put on Horthy not to hand
19them over but to lock them up, to lock them away?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. I think if you look at the history of deportations
21from other European countries, it is quite clear what the
22Germans did at this time. They were sending deportation
23trains to extermination camps.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Four lines from the bottom of the translation, please, the
25first page: "For the present war and the shape which it
26had taken, they", the Jews, "were responsible particularly

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 1for the bombing of the civilian population and the
 2countless victims among women and children". My Lord, you
 3will remember that Professor Evans disputed that bombing
 4was talked about in this conference. You will find the
 5original German on the same page, 240, towards the end of
 6the paragraph.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     No, he did not say that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think what he said was -- I am trying to
11remember -- the Hungarians were co-operative or felt
12resentful against the Jews because of the allied bombing
13in, I think, Hamburg and places like that. It is a
14slightly different point, is it not?
15 MR IRVING:     I am sure your Lordship will look up the
16appropriate reference when the time comes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Am I right about that, Mr Rampton?
18 MR RAMPTON:     I do not remember that. What I do remember
19Professor Evans reporting is that Hitler had mentioned the
20bombing, but had said that it was a bit irritating but
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember that too. Was that in reference
23to the Hungarians?
24 MR RAMPTON:     I think it is in reference to them, but I could be
25wrong. I think that was the Professor's evidence.
26 MR IRVING:     Well, I remember lecturing Professor Evans on the

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 1air raids that had taken place on Essen and Nuremberg in
 2the previous days.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I dare say he did not take it too well.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think what Evans said was that it was
 5ridiculous to suppose that the Hungarians could care less
 6about what had happened in Essen.
 7 MR IRVING:     Well, some days ago.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Some days ago.
 9 MR IRVING:     My Lord, over the page we now go to the translation
10at page 245.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, my Lord. It is day 23, 21st February, page
12159, yes. This is Professor Evans, line 15: "Hitler says
13the attacks themselves have been irritating but wholly
14trivial", so the bombing was talked about.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
16 MR IRVING:     We are now looking at the second page,
17Dr Longerich, of the translation. At the end of the first
18paragraph, this is the famous piece, of course, "He had
19done, he said, everything one decently could" -- this is
20Horthy -- "he had done, he said, everything one decently
21could against the Jews, but one could not very well murder
22them or bump them off somehow. The Fuhrer replied that
23there was no need for that either. Hungary could
24accommodate the Jews in concentration camps just like
25Slovakia". Now, is that an accurate translation of those
26two sentences? It is on page 245. "One could not very

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 1well murder them or bump them off somehow to which Hitler
 2replied that there was no need for that either". Of
 3course, I rely on this following sentence: "Hungary could
 4accommodate the Jews in concentration camps just like
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. At this time -- I am sorry to interrupt -- at this
 7time the majority of the Slovakian Jews were already
 8killed in concentration camps, extermination camps.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So can I remind you of the little exchange we had a few
10minutes where I said that the Germans were not pressing
11the Hungarians to hand over the Jews; they were merely
12asking them to lock them up?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. They invent this story that all the Slovakian Jews
14are at the moment still kept, locked in concentration
15camps. This is the way he tries to persuade Horthy, you
16know, to hand over his Jews. If he had agreed, he would
17have done the same, the same with them as he did in 1944
18when he systematically killed the Hungarian Jews. I do
19not -- I cannot see the point actually of this.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there another explanation for why Hitler would say
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, he was more explicit than on the meeting on 17th or
23the 18th.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the following day.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     So when actually he used the quite different and quite
26clearer language a couple of days after that.

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