Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 159

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    But it was not absolutely used in the documents, the
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The phrase vernichtung durch arbeit, as far as I know,
 3relates, as the documents relate to this limited
 4programme, if I may say so, the killing of asocials.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not myself think that we need to put
 6these anywhere in the papers.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     No, I agree. There is one of them which may have
 8some significance in a different context which is the
 9longest of the three.
10 MR IRVING:     It is construction of Auschwitz, I think, is it
11not, or expansion of Auschwitz?
12 MR RAMPTON:     It is not the construction of Auschwitz. It is
13the expansion of Auschwitz which is rather significant
14because this document is dated 16th September 1942.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, would you like to suggest where it
16goes? Probably in Auschwitz, will it not?
17 MR RAMPTON:     It will best go in the Auschwitz file.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, is that all right?
19 MR RAMPTON:     In tab 4 of ----
20 MR IRVING:     Indeed, my Lord.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 4 of K2, I think it is.
22 MR IRVING:     It would be nicer to have a legible copy of it and
23I am sure his Lordship will agree.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I agree with that entirely. I do not know
25whether that is possible.
26 MR IRVING:     If a legible copy is provided, I can have it

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 4, did you say, Mr Rampton?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that is the one with the written documents in
 4it, I think, tab 4, K2. 3A following.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are you suggesting?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 4, 3A, B, C, D.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     Page 77, paragraph 9, Dr Longerich, you say in
 9Auschwitz between February 1942 and January 1945 between
10900,000 and 1 million Jews were murdered. I have to ask
11you what documentary evidence do you have for the
12statement that 900,000 or a million Jews were murdered as
13opposed to merely being sent there?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     As opposed to merely being sent there?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I followed here because I am not an expert on
17Auschwitz, and we have an expert here. I followed,
18basically, the research which was done during the last
19years, mainly by van Pelt, and also by Piper. So, of
20course, you have to make a distinction here between the
21people who died, sent to gas chambers and the people who
22actually died in the camp.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     From other causes?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     From other causes, but I think the whole working
25conditions in the camp were such that you can, in general,
26say that somebody who was transported to Auschwitz and

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 1died there because of exhaustion, hunger and of other
 2causes was murdered. This was a part of a murderous
 3programme in this general sense, I use the term here.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is important. I think this needs to be fixed,
 5therefore. You are saying, therefore, that the 1 million
 6people who died in Auschwitz were murdered, not
 7necessarily homicidally killed by violence, but you
 8include in that figure the numbers who died from typhus
 9and the other epidemics?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, if you look at the figures, the vast majority of
11Jews who were sent to Auschwitz were directly sent into
12gas chambers, and it is -- I am referring to, I would
13definitely say that this was a murderous operation and
14I would also include the other people who died there.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am not sure you quite really grappled
16with Mr Irving's question which was are you actually
17including in your 1 million figure those who died as a
18result of forced labour?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
20 MR IRVING:     And the starvation, pestilence, plague, epidemics,
21all the other ancillary causes?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, as far as I am familiar with the history of
23Auschwitz, this is a situation which was deliberately
24prepared by the camp authorities. So it is not simply a
25camp, you know, where things went wrong, but this is a
26camp designed to systematically kill people, also the

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 1labour camp.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you basing yourself on basically
 3Professor van Pelt?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Van Pelt also.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Because I am not sure that his evidence was quite to that
 6effect, but at all events that is what you say?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     Are you aware of the book by Professor Arnott
 9Myard, "Why did the heavens not darken" ----
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- in which he said, in his opinion, two things, first of
12all -- I will ask you first of all -- he said that in his
13opinion by far the greatest number of deaths at Auschwitz
14were from what I would call non-homicidal causes?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is definitely not true.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is definitely, in your opinion, not true. In his
17opinion he said, "The only evidence to the contrary is
18unreliable, being based on eyewitnesses"?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am afraid to say, Professor Myerd, his book is
20particularly weak, as far as Auschwitz is concerned. This
21number here is based on the calculation that about 865,000
22Jews actually were not registered in the camps. It was
23865,000 were directly sent to the gas chambers and
24100,000,, about 200,000 Jews were registered in the camp
25and of these 200,000, 100,000 died because of the
26conditions in the camp.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     What documentary evidence do you have -- just a brief
 2question -- for this non-registering of the ones who were
 3sent directly to the gas chambers?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, these are calculations and estimations based on the
 5reconstruction of the deportations from the different
 6places to the camp. They were done by different scholars
 7at different times in different countries, and this is,
 8I think, the number 900,000 to 1 million, is the best we
 9know at the moment.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this comes back to the first question I asked in this
11series which is what evidence do you have for the fact
12that the 1 million who were sent to Auschwitz stayed
13there, effectively, and were not transported somewhere
14else? None of them, it was not just used as a transit
15camp to any effect?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We know that some of the people sent to Auschwitz were
17actually sent to other camps, but it does not, I think the
18statement here that between 900,000 and 1 million Jews
19were murdered represents the knowledge we have at the
20moment about the events in this camp.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, those are the only questions I have to ask
22on your expert report, but I am afraid I am going to ask
23you (as a facility of which his Lordship is aware) just to
24comment on two documents. One is the Horthy conference
25with Hitler. Do you have it, April 16th 1943? It is two
26pages, my Lord.

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