Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition
Pages 51 - 55 of 159
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1 Q. [Mr Irving] But here we have the problem that some of the documents
2seek with brutal frankness about what is going on and a
3lot of documents which do not fit in with your consensus
4you dismiss as camouflage, and this is the only way you
5can get over the other documents. You roundly dismiss the
6other ones as camouflage?
7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I would not agree with you and I made my statements
8concerning these documents, and I do not agree with this
9view, with this view.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] I am now going to come to vernichtung durch arbeit which
11is page 76 of your report, I think. My Lord, I am now
12just going to pick up a few remaining points on his report
13and then ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Just for the transcript, I am putting
15Arnott, this little clip you have just handed in about
16Arnott, in tab 13, but I would be grateful if somebody
17could provide me with another file because this one is
19 MR IRVING: Page 77, Dr Longerich, you say that the SS invented
20the expression "annihilation through labour", "vernichtung
21durch arbeit", now you have produced to the court this
22morning three or four documents you obtained from the
23Institute of History, is that right?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I did not produce them. I have them with me. I can
26 Q. [Mr Irving] I have not had time to scan them in any detail, but I can
1see we have here vernichtung [German - document not
2provided] and there is vernichtung durch arbeit in one of
3the documents. Is there reference there to destroying
4only the Jews through labour or is it ----
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. There was a programme vernichtung durch arbeit, there
6was an agreement between ----
7 Q. [Mr Irving] Tirack and Himmler, is that right?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Himmler, and this refers to the killing of so-called
9asocials and then in the letter it says who the asocials
10are, and among one of the groups are the Jews actually,
11people actually kept in German prisons.
12 Q. [Mr Irving] Just any Jews or Jewish convicts?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Oh, no, convicts.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Were they going to be destroyed as Jews or were they going
15to be destroyed as convicts?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not think for the people who were destroyed it
17mattered, it really mattered, but I think it is clear that
18the definition asocialist, the definition is given in this
19document. It says "Asocials are Jews", and so on in other
20groups. So I do not think, we cannot make a difference
22 Q. [Mr Irving] Asocials are Jews or Jewish convicts?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Jewish convicts and others, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] So I have to ask the question again. Which was the most
25important element in this particular homicidal equation,
26the fact that they were Jews or the fact that they were
1convicts exposed them to vernichtung ----
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, the fact that they were Jewish convicts made them
3asocials, so I cannot separate these two issues.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you saying that they said the other convicts were not
5asocials, the non-Jewish convicts were not asocials?
6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, I think in the letter it is clearly said who
7actually were the others. I do not have the document in
8front of me. If you want to read out the others, I think
9it becomes clear what the definition of "asocials" is.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] Does the word "vernichtung durch arbeit" appear in the
11other documents that you produced?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, there is a ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have I got the documents you are now
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not think so. They just arrived this morning and
16Mr Rampton gave them to me.
17 MR RAMPTON: I think we made copies of them, my Lord. I am
18hoping that somebody has got them.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is becoming a bit of a nightmare, this
20case, with odd documents cropping up and getting slotted
21in, here, there and everywhere.
22 MR RAMPTON: I agree. I have my own copy which I will
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, do not do it if it is the only one you
25have. Maybe I have them, but I do not know what they look
1 MR RAMPTON: They look dirty.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I may have them then. I
3have certainly some dirty documents. I think I may have
4them. Have they got 285 written on them?
5 MR RAMPTON: Yes, there are actually three documents. The
6first one is a four-page document and then there are, I
7think, two single sheet documents. So far as I can tell,
8they are three different documents.
9 MR IRVING: I have to say that a rapid scan produces the word
10vernichtung durch arbeit on the first page, 2864 at the
11bottom, but I cannot see it on any of the other pages.
12I am sure Dr Longerich knows ----
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There are two different things.
14 MR IRVING: Yes.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] There was a programme of vernichtung through work. This
16was according to the agreement between Tirack and Bormann
17and, as you said, this was a programme for the murder of
18asocials and asocials included as a category convicted
19Jews. I used the expression here just to show you that
20the expression vernichtung durch arbeit was used during
21the war by German authorities. I used the term in my
22report in a wider sense, saying that if you look at the
23Holocaust, the vernichtung durch arbeit in this wider
24sense, was a complementary element. So the best -- and it
25was not -- the terminology was sometimes different.
26 So the best, I think, proof, the best evidence,
1for this complementary element is the Wannsee protocol
2because here Heydrich referred to Jews sent to the East
3used in labour gangs. They would become, they would die,
4you know, out of natural dissemination and the fittest
5would survive and have to be dealt with else in another
6way. So I think this is the best ----
7 Q. [Mr Irving] By [German]?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] --- this is the best evidence I think I have that this
9method, extermination through labour, was also used on a
10wide scale to exterminate Jewish, to exterminate Jews as
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask this one question? So what
13you are saying is that you do not think whether the label
14was being used during the war ----
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- is of particular significance?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, that is true.
18 MR IRVING: I was about to say exactly the same. I was going
19to put it like this. The fact is that the phrase
20vernichtung durch arbeit occurs in scattered documents, is
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, that is true.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] And, in your opinion, it could be applied to what Heydrich
24was proposing at the Wannsee conference?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Exactly.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]
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