Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 159

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    It refers here under E [German- document not provided].
 1responsibility for the Jews in France. So it is obviously
 2-- maybe they had a plan to, I do not know, whether they
 3had a plan to build barracks somewhere for Dutch use. I
 4have at the moment no idea.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Like they did for the French Jews?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Definitely here it is nothing to do with the French Jews.
 7 MR IRVING:     Dr Longerich, you say you have no idea but in your
 8book you reference another document which is in a note by
 9a man call Roethke, R-O-E-T-H-K-T, dated August 26th 1942,
10instructing him to raise a list of points at a meeting on
1128th August 1942, which is the one we have been looking
12at. Here it says, point 8: "When can we count on the
13construction of the barracks of the Dusseldorf camp? Has
14construction already been commenced? Where exactly will
15the camp be situated?" There is a marginal note:
16"Attended to".
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not have the document in front of me, I have to say.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but that is a document referenced in the book
19which ----
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I should not comment on the document ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember the Roethkt document?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Pardon?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember the Roethkt document, the memorandum?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, the book was published in '89, so I cannot recall
25every document in the book, and it should not be a big
26problem to have it in front of me and to read it simply.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And on Thursday, of course, we did look at the other
 2document quoted in the book "Auschwitz [German]" from
 3Himmler to the Ministry of Finance also talking about how
 4nice it would be to have the funds to buy the barracks so
 5we do not have to ship the Jews over to Auschwitz and then
 6back to the barracks they are building in Germany, they
 7would save the transport costs ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it says anything of the kind.
 9I did look at that again. We can go back to it if you
10want to, but it seemed to me that actually what that was
11saying was: "There are problems transporting the French
12Jews right across the Reich to Auschwitz. Therefore, as a
13sort of security measure we will build barracks for them
14on the western side of the Reich".
15 MR IRVING:     Which will spare the cost.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which will avoid -- no, but the bit I do not
17agree with is I do not think there is any reference to
18transporting French Jews back westwards to the barracks on
19the western side of Nazi Germany, as it then was.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am indebted to your Lordship for having attended to this
21matter with such concentration. My reading of the
22document was that they were -- I have the quotation here
23[German- document not provided] "The costs on paragraph
24B, and paragraph B concerned the section of the trip from
25the Reich frontier to the Auschwitz camp, can in future be
26dramatically cut or substantially cut, reduced, by the

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 1erection of a reception camp in western Germany", which
 2means they are not going to go to Auschwitz. They are
 3just going to stay at the reception camp.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Quite. They are not going to come back
 5from Auschwitz. That is the point.
 6 MR IRVING:     That is right. They are trying to avoid this two
 7way trip. We may be arguing about the same thing.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I cannot find the reference.
 9 MR IRVING:     But I mean the general question which arises is,
10why are they building all these camps, Dr Longerich, in
11Russia, the White Sea, Western Germany at Dusseldorf for
12the deported Jews if the extermination is the homicidal
13intent of everyone from Hitler downwards?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I cannot comment on this question because I have not seen
15any evidence, you know, for the building of camps. I have
16seen some scattered documents which refer to plans or
17ideas to build camps. One is referring to probably a camp
18for Dutch Jews in Russia. The other one is referring for
19an idea to build a camp for French Jews on the western
20part of the Reich. Then we have a letter from an SS man
21to his comrades referring to -- which is, in my opinion, a
22camouflage letter. So I do not think we have a story of a
23number of -- you know, we do not have here a story, you
24know, can establish a story of camp building for Jews in
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we look at it in two sections? Suppose we admit for

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 1the moment that no such camps were built, and I have no
 2idea, can we say that it is evident from the documents
 3which have been put to you on Thursday and today that
 4there was an intention at high level, certainly Adolf
 5Eichmann, certainly the Reichssicherheitshauptamt to build
 6camps and to obtain the barracks, to purchase the
 7barracks, to build reception centres elsewhere than
 8Auschwitz for these deported European Jews, and the
 9intention was there, regardless of whether or not the
10barracks were actually built?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I would not draw this conclusion from these
12documents because I only can say Eichmann expressed his
13view in this letter here that one should actually order
14barracks, or that the commander of the security police in
15Den Haag should order barracks. It could also be a part
16of this camouflage operation, and I cannot see how you
17connect this document, this quote from Eichmann, with
18other documents and can build up this story, kind of
19intention or story that actually they planned to build a
20system of camps, whereas, on the other hand, we have
21plenty of evidence what actually happened to the people
22who were deported from France, from the Netherlands and
23from Vienna and Bratislava to extermination camps. So
24I cannot see the kind of alternative history.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but we are looking at intentions here and the
26possibility that the people at the top level were issuing

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 1orders and living in possibly cloud cuckoo land, imagining
 2that nice things were happening and that the Jews were
 3being sent, at the worst possible extent, to build roads
 4until they dropped in the White Sea or in Ruthenia or
 5elsewhere, and that they were actually making concrete
 6provisions for it. They were saying, "Send the boots and
 7the shoes and the blankets and the eating equipment and
 8build the barracks and provide the funds to purchase the
 9barracks", and this kind of thing was going on?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that is the official line. This was a part of this
11system of camouflage. You can probably, if you read, for
12instance, the official declaration of the Party
13Chancellory, what happened to the Jews, you find the same
14sorry. You send them to the East, they will live in
15barracks, they have to do hard labour. This is the
16official camouflage story and this is reflected to a
17certain extent in these documents as well.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, it is right, is it not, that there was camouflage
19evident in the euthanasia programme? There are great
20similarities between the euthenasia programme and the
21Final Solution, are there not?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that no one denies that the truth was kept from the
24parents of the unfortunate mentally disabled children and
25so on. There was camouflage there, was there not?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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