Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition
Pages 41 - 45 of 159
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1 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, but we are looking here at chain of command and at
2system and, if you are looking at parallels with the late
31941 killings, which turn out to have been carried out
4without authority, then this would explain how the people
5who are on the route, shall we say, on the track, the
6train loads heading East, would think that one thing is
7happening, whereas the people at the other end who
8actually receive them with anything but open arms, know
9that something quite ugly has happened to them.
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes but this is not an official letter. This is a private
11letter from Herr Furl to his SS comrades, so it is nothing
12to do with the chain of command.
13 MR IRVING: Does your Lordship have a question on that letter?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. Thank you very much.
15 MR IRVING: I am anxious, my Lord, from the timetable point of
16view to leave sufficient time before lunch for
17re-examination, so that the doctor can leave at lunch
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry too much about that.
20 MR RAMPTON: I think it unlikely that he will be able to
21anyway, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait and see. Do not rush it because
23the timetable may have slipped a little.
24 MR IRVING: Dr Longerich, I am now going to go to a memorandum
25written by a man called Horst Arneirt. Now, when I asked
26you about this on Thursday, it seemed unfamiliar to you.
1Have you had time to review your recollection about it?
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I cannot recall the document you are referring to at the
4 Q. [Mr Irving] You cannot recall it?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not available on Thursday. That is
6why we passed over it. Is that not right, Mr Irving?
7 MR IRVING: You did edit a book called (German title)?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] This document is printed in full at the end of this book,
10pages 240 onwards, and that should be one of the clips
11that I gave to ----
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It has not arrived yet.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it was faxed and emailed to the
14Defendants over the weekend. Is that right?
15 MR IRVING: It was faxed to me from Australia this morning.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it is not one of the ones that went over
18 MR IRVING: No. That was just the Wolff translation.
19Dr Longerich, will you accept that you published the
20memorandum of Arniert as document No. 94 in your book?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I do not have it in front of me. Yes, I published the
23 Q. [Mr Irving] This is a conference relating to the deportation of the
24Jews from France?
25 MR RAMPTON: No, I am sorry, this cannot proceed. I do not
26want to be horrible, but it cannot proceed without our
1having the document.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you not got it?
3 MR RAMPTON: No. I have a piece of Gotz Aly. I have something
4from a book by Serge Klasfeld and that is it.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is headed "Die Endlosung der
6Judenfrager" on the front.
7 MR RAMPTON: I have got it. Sorry, my fault.
8 MR IRVING: There are two versions of it, my Lord. One is in a
9book published by Serge Klasfeld, who is a well-known
10French lawyer, but this morning I received a copy of the
11book which is actually published by the witness, edited by
12the witness, in which the same document appears as
13an appendix. This is a report by a man called Horst
14Arniert dated September 1st, relating to a meeting held on
1528th August, at the SS headquarters, the
16Reichssicherheitshauptamt, with Adolf Eichmann in the
17chair, and he informs the participants that the current
18evacuation programme of the Jews from France is to be
19completed by the end of that quarter. I am going to look
20just at some of those paragraphs. You have now a number
21of paragraphs in the document A, B, C, D and E. A is the
22reinforcement of the deporting transports in October. B
23is loading difficulties due to the longer hours of
24darkness in October. C is provision of blankets, shoes
25and eating utensils. D is the nationality problem. E is
26the purchase of barracks. Now I am going to look at C and
1E, in particular, Dr Longerich, and ask you to answer some
2questions on those paragraphs. First of all, this is a
3genuine document, is it not?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph C, I am going to translate it and you can
6correct me if I am wrong: "Giving with them blankets,
7shoes and eating utensils for the transport participants.
8The commandant of the internment camp at Auschwitz has
9demanded that the necessary blankets, working shoes and
10eating utensils are without fail to be put into the
11transport, in with the transports. In so far as this has
12not been done, they are to be sent on to the camp
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving] Now, if these Jews were being sent to Auschwitz to be
16liquidated, they would not need blankets, shoes and eating
17utensils, would they, and there would be no great urgency
18on the part of the commandant of Auschwitz to have this
19stuff sent on after the train had arrived.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I think we went through this before. It is quite obvious
21that not all the Jews in Auschwitz were killed on the
22spot. From late summer 1942 onwards, the trains stopped
23in a camp called Kausal, it is near Auschwitz, and the
24people fit for work were actually unloaded and spent
25several months in slave labour camps in Silesia. Some of
26them actually survived. So I would guess that the
1reference here to shoes and other things refers to the
2people they wanted to keep alive for a couple of months.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Paragraph E, the purchase of barracks: "SS Major Eichmann
4has requested that the purchase of the barracks that have
5been ordered by the commander of the security police in
6the Hague should be immediately put in hand. The camp is
7going to be erected in Russia. The departure transport of
8the barracks can be arranged in such a manner that each
9transport train can take three to five barracks with
10them." What does that tell you about the final
11destination of where these train loads of Jews were going
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have no indication actually that these barrack were
14actually, you know, in the end were loaded on these
15trains. It is only said that -- Eichmann expresses his
16intention that this should be done. I have no idea
17whether they did this or not and I have no idea what the
18purpose of this barrack was. It is referring here to the
19commander of the security police in Den Haag, so this
20relates to the Netherlands, and at the moment I cannot say
21either whether this happened or what the purpose of this
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is talking about Dutch Jews, not French
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] It refers here under E [German- document not provided].
26So this refers to the Dutch Jews only. He had no
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