Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 159

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    From Himmler, who at this time was -- I was very careful
 1I did not say he was in Hitler bunker because I do not
 2know whether he was in Hitler's bunker or not. So I think
 3it is very careful and I think it is ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not that I know quite what the point
 6is. Is the point, Mr Irving, that you are suggesting that
 7the way it has been written by Dr Longerich in his book is
 8to suggest that "keine liquidierung" actually meant "stop
 9this altogether" rather than just "do not liquidate this
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the point that I am making, the point
12which he makes slightly more strongly in the book than in
13his expert report, if I am right, that, in consequence of
14this telephone call from Himmler at Hitler's headquarters,
15the killings of Germans stopped because the killers had
16exceeded their authority.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And that "keine liquidierung" therefore had,
18according to Dr Longerich's book, a general application
19rather than a specific one to that train load?
20 MR IRVING:     I am not going to go so far as to say that, my
21Lord. I just wanted to underline the point once more that
22this is a document. You do not have to join very many
23dots to find out what happened here, because of course we
24had the police decodes the following day, which
25Dr Longerich obviously did not have at the time he wrote
26the book. I am now going to move on to another document,

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 1Dr Longerich. We looked at this very briefly on Thursday,
 2and this is the Furl letter.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You actually have referred to this letter, have you not?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not think so.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     No?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we have a reference for it, so that I can
 9 MR IRVING:     I have given you a translation of it on one page.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you?
11 MR IRVING:     Headed page 175, on the top left hand corner
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     But not from my book.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. You are quite right.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be that this is somewhere in the
16Defendant's bundles and, if it is, perhaps we can follow
17it there.
18 MR RAMPTON:     No. I do not think it is. This is a different
19version from the one that I was given last week. Your
20Lordship was given it too. It was another of Mr Irving's
21clips. This is not a complaint against him, but I do
22confess to the impossible difficulty of keeping track of
23these things as they come flooding in.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am having the same difficulty, as it were,
25on both sides.
26 MR RAMPTON:     On I think it was probably Thursday or Wednesday

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 1last week one got a rather larger extract from Gotz Aly's
 2book, the same page but a longer extract. It is in the
 3back of J2, says the boss, so that is where it will be.
 4Now we have a different version, I do not know why. I am
 5not suggesting there is anything sinister about having two
 7 MR IRVING:     You are familiar with the book by Gotz Aly?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I know the book.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     The new clip has a printed version of the English
10edition of Gotz Aly's book at the back of it. I have not
11had a place for this new clip allocated yet.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have only one page.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Is that the page your Lordship had last week?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got the first page of last week's
16 MR RAMPTON:     Now comes a new version.
17 MR IRVING:     That is more like it. Now we have it. This clip
18is entirely connected with the Furl letter. My Lord, just
19so you can see what is the clip, on the first page is the
20translation of the passages which interest, which is all
21that we have of that letter. The second and third pages
22are the two pages from the Gotz Aly book, which is a very
23reliable authority, which quotes the letter in German.
24I will just take Dr Longerich, if I may, through the text
25of the letter. In June 1942 Walter Furl, who is a
26administrative officer based in Krakow, wrote to his

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 1comrades in the SS, "Every day trains are arriving with
 2over a thousand Jews each from throughout Europe. We
 3provide first aid here" -- I think the word he uses
 4verartsten -- "give them more or less provisional
 5accommodation and usually deport them further towards the
 6White Sea to the white Ruthenien marshlands, where they
 7all, if they survive, and the Jews from Vienna or
 8Pressberg certainly will not, will be gathered by the end
 9of the war but not without having first built a few
10roads. But we are not supposed to talk about it". That
11is what I want to ask you about, Dr Longerich. On the
12following page we have the translation in German, the
13original German.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not have the German here.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Pages 2 and 3. My Lord, obviously the significance of
16this passage is that the Jews were not being sent from
17Krakow to Auschwitz, which are just next door, but they
18were being shipped on to strange locations in the East.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the White Sea?
20 MR RAMPTON:     That is up in the north of Russia, beneath the
21Kola Peninsula, near Mamansk. It is quite a long way
22away. The white Ruthenien mashes I think are probably the
23same as the Pripyat marshes as far as I know.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are they?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I think so.
26 MR IRVING:     Dr Longerich, your contention is, is it not, that

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 1this letter is camouflage? Like the Gotz Aly contention
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have to ask you then, first of all, what do we know
 5about Walter Furl? He was an official of the ----
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. He was in fact the Deputy Director of the Department
 7for Population and Welfare in the government of the
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Knowing the answer already in advance, can you tell me if
10any members whatsoever of that department were ever
11prosecuted after World War II?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have no idea at the moment. I cannot tell you.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     None were prosecuted. Is that correct? You say you have
14no idea.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is possible, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So they were not engaged in criminal activities?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is a conclusion you draw from this. We know that the
18German courts, to say the minimum, in the 50s were quite
19lenient to prosecute systematically German war crimes done
20by Germans. So this conclusion, I think, does not lead to
21anything. He was not prosecuted. It does not mean that
22he was not involved in war crimes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Especially he would not know in 1942 whether
24he was going to be prosecuted or whether he was not.
25 MR IRVING:     No. The point is, my Lord, if the Germans or the
26Poles or the Russians had determined that this was a

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