Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 159

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    Could he not equally well have said that obviously Hitler
 1vier Augen, under four eyes, with Himmler and that he
 2Wolff had no knowledge of it? He could equally well have
 3exonerated himself by saying that, if he was right in a
 4self-serving document, could he not?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not think so. I think his strategy was to
 6systematically try to distance himself from everything
 7that happens in Hitler's headquarters concerning the fate
 8of the Jews.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did he remain loyal to Hitler into the 50s
10and 60s?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     He was absolutely loyal. At this time he never actually
12gave up his sympathy for national socialism.
13 MR IRVING:     A lot of Germans never did.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You see halfway down that page he describes Himmler as
16being in his way bizarrely religious, holding to the view
17that the greatest war lord in the greatest war of all
18times, in other words Hitler, he had to take upon himself
19these tasks.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does that fit in with your picture that you have of
22Himmler's nature and his character?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     There is obviously some truth in this remark, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The loyal Heiny, the faithful Heiny?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. On page 6 of the German document he is saying
26Himmler (German spoken - document not provided) Hitler.

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 1I do not know how you translated this.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Himmler was of blind subservience to Hitler.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Which actually is a kind of contradiction to this view
 4that he would actually do it on his own. Also, I find
 5particularly, because I did not have your translation,
 6I studied your transcript, the transcripts you made in the
 7Institute fur Zeitgeschichte and compared it with the
 8German original. Also, in the German original, you find
 9in the central passage that Wolff inserted the
10word "wohl".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, handwritten?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     So he actually was saying "I am not absolutely sure about
13this, I think so" (To the interpreter) How do you
14translate "wohl" in English?
15 MR IRVING:     It is on page 7, my Lord, of this same page, the
16page beginning "and declared", line 7.
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Which page in the German?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "General Wolff also saw Bormann who was infinitely
19actively involved in these things, together with Hoess,
20the former famed murderer, Bormann and Himmler", and he
21has inserted in handwriting the word "probably", wohl,
22"represented the view that the Jewish problem had to be
23dealt with without Hitler getting his fingers dirty in the
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is in the German document on page 4.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not quarrel with the translation of

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 1wohl as "probably"?
 2 MR IRVING:     Probably, or perhaps.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It was not in your transcript. In your transcript you
 4left it out.
 5 MR IRVING:     Or "may well have"?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. He obviously wanted to say that, well, he is not
 7absolutely sure, he inserted the word "wohl" in the end.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry but in the transcript I did insert it. It is
 9in the second paragraph. The word "probably" is in square
10brackets inserted. I know, Dr Longerich, it is a
11difficult concept to grapple with in the witness box but
12how would this----
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is difficult for me to deal with three documents at the
14same time, two in English and one in German, I have to say
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And to listen to my questions at the same time?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the point Dr Longerich is probably
19making but I do not know where I find the manuscript now,
20is that you did not put "probably" in your original
21manuscript note.
22 MR IRVING:     It was, my Lord, and I am sure we will find it.
23Otherwise, I would not have known how to put it in in the
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have no idea where that is.
26 MR IRVING:     I am prepared to take strichnine on that one, as

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 1they say in German.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, it is seven lines down in the manuscript
 3notes, I call them.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But where do we put those? That is my
 6 MISS ROGERS:     It should be in Tab 11, J2, party claimants
 7bundle H.
 8 MR IRVING:     Has your Lordship found it?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, in square brackets. You are quite
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In square brackets, I agree.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you, Mr Irving.
13 MR IRVING:     
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In your transcript, if I may comment on it, this is the
15piece of paper you take home from the Institut fur
16Zeitgeschichte, you left out the passage where actually
17Wolff is referring to millions of dead, and also you left
18out the passage that is referring to the vergassungs, the
19idea to gassings. So your impression, when you read this
20document, was that only Wolff dealt here with Hitler's
21attitude or non-attitude towards the Jewish question, and
22you left out these important two paragraphs because you
23were not interested in them, obviously.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where do we find vergassung?
25 MR IRVING:     Half way down the English translation, the new
26translation, "Whenever Himmler uttered such thoughts, as

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 1he did repeatedly, he never made any concrete reference
 2to, for example, the Jewish problem. But one today well
 3imagine that Himmler ordered the murder of millions of
 4Jews in a kind of crazily perverted idealism permeated
 5with the notion that the lofty objective which Hitler had
 6defined was one that justified the adoption of any means".
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have got that, but what about
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is in the last line of the English before in
10square brackets 00032, "The gassing idea probably emerged
11when a genuine epidemic broke out".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
13 MR IRVING:     Of course I cannot give evidence, but let me ask
14this question this way, and say is it not likely that
15Wolff, when he was being interviewed in 1952, had read
16what every other German had read in the newspapers about
17millions being gassed?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I cannot say what Wolff read in the newspapers, but he is
19referring here clearly, he is accepting the idea that
20millions of Jews were killed, and he is accepting the idea
21that they were killed by gas. So that is there was no way
22for him to know. He did not attempt to dispute this. He
23only tried to, of course, distance Hitler from these
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look at the last paragraph on that same page of the
26translation beginning with the words, "around August

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