Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 159

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    Maybe what we had better to do to cater for
 1through some of the main organizations, IHR and maybe some
 2of the others, to lay the foundation for saying that they
 3are the sorts of organizations on which the Defendants
 4should be entitled to rely.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     That is what I had hoped your Lordship might allow
 6me to do, because the tangle of interlocking personalities
 7or personnel and organizations in Germany is a nightmare.
 8Professor Funke is probably the only person in the world,
 9apart from Mr Irving who knows his way round it, and what
10I had hoped was that I am going to try to show some film.
11I will have to did it in cross-examination first, I will
12point out some faces, and your Lordship will see exactly
13what I have been talking about. Then Professor Funke who
14will by then have instructed me, I will know who the faces
15belong to and, roughly speaking, what their political
16colour is. I can start off in that way. Then your
17Lordship will find at the back of Professor Funke's report
18a list of abbreviations which nobody should have to try to
19memorize, but much more useful a sort of dramatis
20personae, that is to say, a short biographical sketch of
21each of the main right-wing extremists with whom Mr Irving
22is associated in Germany. That is an extremely useful
23document.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Herr Funke has also produced a short executive
26summary of his report, explaining the evolution and

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 1history of neo-Nazi right-wing extremism in Germany. As
 2soon as I get back to the office I will release copies of
 3that.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Mr Irving, there we are. That is the
 5view I take on your submissions. What it comes to is we
 6will look carefully at any organizations, and indeed any
 7individuals statements, on which the Defendants are
 8relying, but in principle, for the reasons I have given,
 9it seems to me they are entitled to advance this as part
10of their plea of justification.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But we will look at it closely because it
13cannot get out of hand.
14 MR IRVING:     I am very anxious that it should not get out hand.
15It is liable to turn into a shooting gallery of the most
16random sort in which any numbers of names are dragged in
17and presented as being neo-Nazis who happen to have been
18in the same room as I or in the same continent or in the
19same county.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I would not dream of doing that. It would be a
21monstrous waste of the court's time, and anyway it would
22get me nowhere which is perhaps more important. It will
23consistent of showing Mr Irving's intimate relationships
24over periods of time with individuals, ranging from them
25turning up at his meetings, this kind of thing, him having
26dinner with them. It is nothing like finding two people

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 1in the same waiting room at a railway station. It really
 2is not.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There are two propositions, both have to be
 4put together. One is an association.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Exactly.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which is a pure question of fact.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Then they have to prove who the person is.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then you have to prove the colour of their,
 9whatever it is ----
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that is exactly right.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- cut of their gib. It is not an easy
12area. I think rogues gallery, which is what this in a way
13comes to, is always difficult. We have to watch it.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Rogues' gallery I have always hated as an
15advocate. I have always found it difficult, and it is a
16question of fine judgment in each case. But this is not
17rogues gallery, if I can prove that Mr Irving is one of
18the rogues.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is always true of rogues gallery.
20 MR IRVING:     My Lord, in response of course, if I am going to be
21subjected to this kind of public flogging, then course
22I shall expect or hope for a greater degree of latitude in
23presenting my own bundle E when the time comes, because
24that is also a kind of rogues gallery of its own kind.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who are rogues?
26 MR IRVING:     The international endeavour to destroy me.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 2 MR IRVING:     There are certain parallels there which I would
 3draw.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think this can be approached on the
 5basis of tit for tat, as it were, but I hear what you
 6say. You would be entitled to say, Mr Irving, that you
 7wanted a formal ruling from me. I think as we have the
 8transcript, and as there are a great many other things for
 9all of us to do overnight, as it were, you are entitled to
10ask for it, do you want me to do a formal ruling?
11 MR IRVING:     Not a formal ruling, my Lord, but I would like to
12know what the timetable is now for the next two or three
13days so that I can plan.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a very good question.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I am in your Lordship's hands. I am in
16Mr Irving's hands. I say with not with any pride or
17whatever, but I do say that we have made very good
18progress in this case. We are at least four, maybe five
19or six, weeks short of the estimate even now. We have
20nearly finished the evidence. I quite agree, those files
21actually landed on me on Friday too, and my heart sank
22too. I have in fact read them. They do contain a lot of
23material about Mr Irving's activities because they are
24taken from his diary and from his correspondence and so
25on.
26 MR IRVING:     Selected from my diary.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, maybe. That is right. The human brain is
 2very good at selection. I would like him, if he needs it,
 3to have the time to read them before I cross-examine him
 4about them. I have got a residuum of cross-examination
 5about history still to do, loose ends. I am entirely in
 6your Lordship's hands.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it Herr Funke, is it, or Dr Funke?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Dr Funke is here.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Presumably, the sensible thing then would be
10to take his evidence next.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Before I cross-examine Mr Irving?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am completely easy. It is just a
13waste of time, I would have thought, to have Dr Funke
14hanging about while you cross-examine.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Well, they want me to cross-examine first.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us ask Mr Irving because your view
17counts.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I would like to cross-examine Dr Funke
19before my cross-examination. The simple reason is this
20may enable us to knock out a number of personalities or
21organizations which would probably be useful. If we
22establish the number of personalities or organizations are
23perfectly clean, and not criminal and are non-violent and
24non-revolutionary and not anti-Semitic and none of the
25things that Professor Lipstadt has said in her book, then,
26presumably, your Lordship would not be interested in my

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