Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 159

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    No, I am not justifying association with
 1ugly kind of neo-Nazi types, in particular in Germany and
 2in America. One sees how he pleads the case on page 5 at
 3the bottom of the page in (i), that the Plaintiff is a
 4dangerous spokesman for Holocaust denial forces who
 5deliberately and knowingly consorts and consorted with
 6anti-Israel, anti-semitic and Holocaust denial forces.
 7One can stop there because the "and who" is then
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is a bit over the page.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but it is disjunctive.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see why you say that.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Because it would to have say "Holocaust denial
13forces who advocate and resort to violence", etc., but it
14does not. It falls into two distinct parts.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. The next question I suppose that
16arises, I have not looked at RWE 1 and 2 beyond glancing
17at them, you are saying, are you, that they all come
18within the umbrella of the confluence of anti-Israel,
19anti-semitic and Holocaust denial forces?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship has seen some of the material which
21has come from Mr Irving's own pen or his own lips on these
22occasions, and unless I am completely up a gum tree, it
23does seem to us that that is some of the most virulently
24racist and anti-Semitic material that one has ever seen.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about that.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No question. That is our case and it is not one

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 1that I am going to back off very easily, I have to say.
 2Those are the sorts of occasions when like-minded people,
 3and we shall identify them one by way, what the
 4organizations are, what they stand for, who their
 5personnel are, how the personnel all link up together,
 6that you have, in effect, for example in Germany a network
 7of what may properly be called "neo-Nazis" and there is no
 8other word for them, of which Mr Irving is a member.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is another aspect which I should have
10put to Mr Irving and I will in a minute, but I just want
11to ask you about it. One of the main thrusts I suppose of
12the libel, and certainly of the way you put your plea of
13justification, is really the historiographical thrust,
14namely that ----
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- there is misinterpretation, as you say,
17after misinterpretation, and that races the question of
18reason ----
19 MR RAMPTON:     Motive.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- or motive, yes. Would you say that one
21may see, I will not say a truer side, but another side of
22Mr Irving's approach to these issues, if one looks to see
23not only what he says himself but what he is prepared to
24have said by those with whom he has consorting?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I do not mean this in any literal sense, but
26he has prostituted his skills and his talents, and they

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 1are considerable, in the service of I can only say a
 2restoration of a kind of Nazi anti-semitic ideology. That
 3is I have always said the obvious motive for the lies
 4which he tells when he writes history about Adolf Hitler,
 5and that is the motive for his Holocaust denial. The
 6whole thing hangs together. If we are allowed to pursue
 7this line of defence, your Lordship will see it, what this
 8is what happens when he goes to these gatherings, whether
 9they are the United States or in Germany or in this
10country or whether ever it may be.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes,.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Then one sees the picture of the whole man;
13perhaps not the whole man, but three important parts of
14the man: What he thinks, who he speaks to and how he
15speaks, and then when he comes to his so-called history
16how he writes. The three strands together form a powerful
17picture of a man who is writing, falsifying history
18because he worships Adolf Hitler, Nazi doctrines and hates
19Jews and other people of different backgrounds.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am still of the view that what
21is written about those with whom you consort is defamatory
22or potentially defamatory. I am also of the view that
23what the Defendants are seeking to set up by way of
24justification of that defamatory meaning is something that
25is open to them. One of the reasons, which I have not
26asked you about and therefore I ought to put it to you

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 1now, is that it may well be that all this material, quite
 2apart from being relevant to justify the words, is also
 3relevant or may be relevant to explain how it comes about
 4that these errors to which the Defendants point in your
 5writings, how they can be explained. Do you follow me?
 6It is the point I raised with Mr Rampton.
 7 MR IRVING:     This is very similar to the idea that I omitted to
 8present your Lordship in the original presentation of the
 9submission, which is that another form of extremism which
10is illegal is of course extremism in the way of a foreign
11government, and this would be something similar, holding
12extreme views in being beholden to ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, in some ways that is another motive.
14 MR IRVING:     I appreciate that could be defamatory. I have no
15objection at all to them leading evidence on that or
16cross-examining on that kind of matter, but I think that
17the court should very properly rein in any kind of
18cross-examination that goes to guilt by association, and
19I am sure your Lordship would quite clearly be able to
20identify what any attempt of that is. If they can
21establish that I have had any kind of associations with
22any kind of neo-Nazis or Nazi subversists or
23revolutionaries or people of the kind that Mr Rampton was
24fantasizing about, then by all means let them try.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I think they are entitled to do is to
26call evidence to the effect that you have either

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 1associated with groups that are in themselves right-wing
 2or in some way anti-Semitic or anti-Israel or involved
 3with Holocaust denial, and that they are also entitled to
 4put to you statements made by those who are intimately
 5involved with organizations of that kind or indeed
 6statements made at meetings when you were on the platform
 7or even present.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we are faced then with the problem of
 9definition. They say Mr Irving addressed the Women's
10Institute of Los Angeles or something which we claim is an
11extremist neo-Nazi organization, how does your Lordship
12know? They are not going to put in the expert reports.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I listen to the evidence, is the answer, or
14look at the evidence.
15 MR IRVING:     Yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And see what it amounts to.
17 MR IRVING:     But for them just to say that a Mr Webber Mr Smith
18or Mr Bloggs is an extremist and say "Mr Irving has met
19him, we can prove it, we have photographs of him standing
20to next to Mr Bloggs", this is going to be a problem is
21going to confront the court.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Maybe what we had better to do to cater for
23that concern, and I do understand it, we cannot have a
24completely wide, open-ended kind of discussion about all
25these organizations, unless the ground work is laid, is
26for me to invite Mr Rampton perhaps to take Mr Funke

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