Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 159

<< 1-5156-159 >>
    No. My Lord those are all the questions I have in
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much, Mr Rampton.
 3Dr Longerich, eventually that concludes your evidence
 4I think.
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Thank you.
 6 < (The witness stood down).
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving. Now are you going at this
 8stage to make the submissions you mentioned this morning
 9about the ----
10 MR IRVING:     After two or three other minor points, my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, all right. Deal with the others first.
12 MR IRVING:     Firstly, my Lord, the defendants are relying quite
13heavily on the Muller document of 1st August 1941. I do
14feel that I need to see the original, or at least to know
15where the original is. The Bundesarchive, as I told your
16Lordship, has told me it is not in the file that has been
17quoted by the Defendants as the source. We have only been
18shown transcripts of it. I would like to see either a
19facsimile or to know reliably where the document is.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just let us have a look.
21 MR IRVING:     I showed your Lordship my correspondence with the
22German Federal Archives in which they said they had
23checked the file and they have not found the document in
24the file as stated by the Defendants.
25 MR RAMPTON:     I think this has been sorted, but, my Lord, can I
26just ask Dr Longerich, because I think he probably has the

.   P-126

 1answer to this. I think the short answer is, from what
 2I remember of what I was told, is that, when Mr Irving --
 3it is not Mr Irving's fault -- telephoned to look for the
 4document, they looked in the wrong file. I think it is as
 5simple as that. I am quite certain that the document is
 6there and elsewhere. I have a belief that it is at
 7Ludwigsberg, which is the centre for prosecutions, but can
 8I just take instructions?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, do.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Can we have a small conference, my Lord?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, please do.
12 MR IRVING:     Quite simply, my Lord, the reason is that I would
13like to know what else is in that file, of course.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pause a minute and we will see what the
15result of the huddle is.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry about that, my Lord, but I think I am
17right. The united brains of German historical research
18tell me that the file number which was given by Mr Irving,
19through no fault of his own, to the person at the
20Bundesarchive was the wrong one. It is in the
21Bundesarchive, but it is also in the Zentralstelle at
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are they both Abschrifts?
24 MR RAMPTON:     That I do not know.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Because what Mr Irving is really looking for
26I think is the one that is not an Abschrift, if there is

.   P-127

 2 MR RAMPTON:     By picking up the telephone, if Mr Irving's
 3attempt failed, we will try and have a successful attempt
 4to get it from both places, if it is going to be possible
 5at any rate before the case is finished. Whether it is an
 6Abschrift or not, I do not know.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What you may not have heard Mr Irving say was
 8that he is also interested in knowing what else is in the
 9particular file which it is in, if it is in any file.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Then I think he must go and look for that himself.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think he has the problem, at any rate with
12some of the archives, that he has not got access to them.
13Is that what you would say?
14 MR IRVING:     The German government archives are corresponding
15with me because I am offering them something by way of a
16horse trade at present.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do you not keep that up? What are you
18asking me to do?
19 MR IRVING:     I need to know the actual file number of course, my
20Lord. I need to know the correct file number.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is fair enough. Mr Rampton, when you
22have found out which file number or numbers it is in, will
23you pass that on to Mr Irving?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, we will let Mr Irving know.
25 MR IRVING:     The second problem, my Lord, it is not a problem,
26is that I learned from yesterday's Israeli newspapers that

.   P-128

 1the Defendants are applying for access to Adolf Eichmann's
 2private papers.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I saw that this morning.
 4 MR IRVING:     I welcome this initiative. Would they also apply
 5to the Israeli government for access to Heinrich Himmler's
 6private diaries which are in the Israeli archives?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That, I am afraid, is something that is
 8beyond my power, because I can only order that things that
 9are within their power be disclosed and I do not think
10that they have the power.
11 MR IRVING:     Perhaps it will resonate off your Lordship on to
12the defence side and, if they hear from me that Himmler's
13diaries are in Israeli hands----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very flattering to me, Mr Irving
15but I think it is overstating the position.
16 MR IRVING:     The third point is that, once again, the Defendants
17have dropped on me from a great height on Friday evening
18several hundreds of pages of documents, expecting me to
19read them in time for the cross-examination. These are
20the bundles RWE1 and 2, which your Lordship probably has
21also received.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am afraid I have not had time even to
23dip into them.
24 MR IRVING:     I apprehend that RWE stands for right-wing
25extremism, which takes me on to the main point which I am
26going to make now, the main submission I am going to make.

.   P-129

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 2 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have taken the opportunity to go back to
 3the original pleadings to see what the issues are. The
 4issues as pleaded, as set out in my Statement of Claim,
 5I have looked through for any reference to right-wingism
 6and to extremism and, if I can just hand your Lordship
 7this page, it is the only reference in the Statement of
 8Claim to either extremism or right-wingism.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I suggest that the starting point
10probably is to see what Professor Lipstadt wrote in her
11book? Would you agree with me that the references to what
12you might call right-wing extremism is the passage on page
1314, am I right? Have you got the Statement of Claim or
14her book?
15 MR IRVING:     I do not have the Statement of Claim in front of
16me. I only have the words complained of and the meaning
17which I attach to those words.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, yes, the reason for starting with what
19is written is that what you attach to Professor Lipstadt's
20words by way of natural and ordinary meaning is not, as it
21were, the last word. You have to see also what was
22actually written by the Defendant.
23 MR IRVING:     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which is why I suggest you should start
25with -- have you not got the Statement of Claim?
26 MR IRVING:     Yes.

.   P-130

<< 1-5156-159 >>