Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 159

<< 1-5156-159 >>
    I just want to look finally, if we may, Dr Longerich, at
 1the way this system worked, or how it developed. It is at
 2page 243, I think. This is one document, my Lord, for
 3which I humbly apologise we have no translation.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is unusual in that respect.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No. We have improved a lot. A lot of the
 6documents do have translations. Is this a printed
 7version, the document No. 218, of a Gestapo report from
 8Lodz dated 9th June 1942?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, it is.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is a table above it. Do you know who compiled that
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They are two different documents.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know they are.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It says here, the Meldeburo, the registration office.
15I think that is probably the registration office of the
16Jewish Council of Lodz, because they would do the
17registration work.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is deaths in the ghettoes, is it not?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
20 MR RAMPTON:     These are the comings and goings into the ghetto
21and out of the ghetto, are they not?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There are some people coming in on the left-hand side
24under zugang?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ein gesiedelte aus dem Reich und - what is WRTL?

.   P-121

 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Wartheland.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I see. In May 7,000 odd came into the ghetto, but
 3I am interested more in the Abgang column which is the
 4people who had gone for one reason or another. The left
 5hand column, Gestoben, are the dead people, are they not?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then the greatest number by far, a total I think of about
 855,000, are said to have gone, they have been ausgesiedelt
 9nach Kulmhof?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Kulmhof is a very small village.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is Chelmno.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is Chelmno.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Some were ausgesiedelt zur arbiet, do you see?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not very many but some were. Then the totals. Can we
16look at the Gestapo report of 9th June which is just
17underneath that table. Can I read to you a translation,
18if you would not mind following it in the German. It is
19on the subject of the Jews or Judentum, is that right?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You tell me, with the help the interpreter, when I go
22wrong. "With regard to the Jews" or Jewry "the work of
23the State police focused on the Gau Ghetto in
24Litzmanstadt". That is German for Lodz, is it not?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, the German name.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Litzmanstadt, "which was to be built according to the

.   P-122

 1instructions of the Gauleiter".
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Good. I did not do this translation so I take no credit
 4for it. "Upon instruction of the Gauleiter all Jews not
 5fit for work shall be evacuated and those fit for work in
 6the whole Gau collected in the Litzmanstadt ghetto". Yes?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "From here larger proportions of Jews shall be used in the
 9Gau area for various kinds of work (building of rail track
10and roads) and shall be returned into the ghetto again
11after the end of work. Those Jews remaining in the ghetto
12shall be without exception used for work there. In the
13course of building the Gau ghetto, firstly, it appeared
14necessary to create space for the Jews who were to be
15settled there. For this purpose a larger number of Jews
16not fit for work was evacuated from the ghetto and handed
17over to the sonderkommando". Correct?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I am going to struggle on my own because my
20translation runs out there: "Of the Polish Jews since
2116th January 1942 a total of 44,152 were outsettled". We
22do not have that word but that is what it means, deported?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Of those from the outReich, the Ostmacht and the
25Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia who came in October
261941, in das hiesige" - what does that mean?

.   P-123

 1 THE INTERPRETER:     The ghetto here.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     "In the here ghetto", yes, "who came in, 19,848
 3Jews", the total that is, "10,993 were evacuated", yes?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "So that", nunmehr?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Now.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Now we have made room in the ghetto for about 55,000
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that correct?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not need to go any further. Does that illustrate
13precisely the process that you have been describing to us?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, up to a point. What is puzzling me
16about that is that some of the Jews who were being
17evacuated out of ghetto, presumably to Chelmno, were in
18fact Jews from the outReich, 10,000 of them?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it look like it, nearly 11,000.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It seems rather an odd way of going about it
21in a sort of way.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Presumably there is pressure from those coming in.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It does not say what happens. I would assume that the
25largest number of the 19,000 Jews are dead at this time.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I can tell you that, if you read the text, the

.   P-124

 1total number that were ausgesiedelt, whether from Poland
 2or originally from the outReich or whatever, is 54,145.
 3If you look at the table, almost all of those went to
 4Kulmhof, because the total that went to Kulmhof or Chelmno
 5is 54,990.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So they were not dead?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     They were.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They were dead later.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Did this happen quite often, that 11,000 Jews
11brought in from Berlin in October and other parts of the
12greater Reich would then be taken off to Chelmno and
13gassed six months later?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     These are the transport in October 1941, about 20,000 were
15transported to the ghetto, and a large number of them died
16during the winter.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They then transported 10,000 to Chelmno and the rest of
19them they could obviously use for work assignments.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     More would come in to take their place?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. They make place for the local Jews in the Warthegau
22who actually are brought into the ghetto.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is there any more of this report that we need to look at?
24It is your document, it comes from your report.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not think so.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

.   P-125

<< 1-5156-159 >>