Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 159

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    Yes. For example, the last entry for 2nd September 41, a
 1shot at by some Jews. Is that right?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know why it is that, throughout this document, such
 4pretexts or excuses are so scarce?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think the Jager report is simply a different kind of
 6document than the Eignismeldung, so I think the people who
 7had to write Eignismeldung had clear orders to give a
 8reason for every killing. This is a different kind of
 9report. This is a summary report.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then you have partisans listed and then just
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
13 MR RAMPTON:     This is the raw material, is it, upon which the
14Eignismeldungen would have been written, do you think?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not absolutely sure, because the Eignismeldung were
16written on a daily basis, or on a monthly basis, and this
17is a summary report. So it is part of a different
18reporting system, if you want to say so.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who would this have been reported to, do you know? You
20cannot tell from looking at it.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It says five copies. I do not know whether it is actually
22mentioned here.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My document runs out on page 9 ----
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     One has to look at the end whether there is a list of
25distribution, but it definitely would go to the
26Einsatzgruppen R.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     And probably, I do not know, a copy to the civil
 3administration, but I am not sure about that.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What I was driving at is quite a simple point really. Do
 5you think, Dr Longerich, that it is possible that, if this
 6was, as it were, a local document, in other words this
 7document is kept within Einsatzgruppen A's area, yes,
 8before the figures were compiled and sent to Berlin, that
 9there would be more openness than there was when the
10figures went on from wherever it was to Berlin?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I think it is simply the number of copies is very
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We know that the Eignismeldung had 55 and more copies. So
15I think this is a confusion which is possible.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have one final thing I want to ask you about, which will
17not take very long, and it is this. You were telling us,
18I think it was on Thursday last week but it might have
19been Wednesday, about a system which either was planned or
20which evolved whereby the Jews and the General Government
21were deported and killed at the extermination camps to
22make way for Jews from the West or from the south.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     At the beginning, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would like, because I think this will help us all and
25certainly me, at the end of the day if we could do a short
26chronology. The gassings in the Warthegau at Chelmno

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 1began on 8th December 1941?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that is correct.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who were the Jews that were killed there, first of all?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The local Jews. The Jews from villages from the
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Then the Jews from the Lodz ghetto beginning in January.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The German for Chelmno is Kulmhof?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How is that spelt?
10 MR RAMPTON:     K U L M H O F. Chelmno, I call it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I call it Chelmno.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Do you know roughly how many of the local Jews
13were killed at Kulmhof or Chelmno?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The estimation is about 140,000 minimum, plus then the
15German Jews who were ----
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I was coming on to that. Were some German Jews killed at
17Chelmno in due course?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. We know about one so-called action where about
1910,000 Jews from Central Europe, Germany, Austria the
20Protectorate, were killed in Chelmno in May 1942.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In May 1942?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And what about the Reinhardt camps? Belzec was being
24built in late 41, was it not?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They started to build it in November 1941.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And when did they start killing people at Belzec?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They started in March 1942.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     March 42?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the other two, Treblinka and Sobibor?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They started to build Sobibor approximately in February,
 6and it became, what do you say about an extermination, it
 7became operational, I think, in May 1942. Then Treblinka,
 8they started to build Treblinka in May and the systematic
 9killing in Treblinka started in July 1942.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Systematic killings at Treblinka and Sobibor?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sobibor started a little bit earlier.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did they have the same pattern, Treblinka,
13Sobibor and Belzec, starting by killing the local Jews?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Then the Jews from Germany?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is a little bit different from camp to camp. In Belzec
17they started first of all to kill the local Jews and then
18later on also, as far as I recall it rightly, other Jews.
19It is a different operation. Belzec was built first of
20all to kill the Jews of the district of Lublin whereas,
21when you move on two or three months, you can see that
22actually the three Reinhardt camps were there to kill all
23the Jews in the Generalgouvernement, so it is different.
24You can see that they moved a step forwards during spring
26 MR RAMPTON:     Did they eventually start killing Jews from the

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 1outReich, the Protectorate and other parts of Europe
 2systematically at these three camps?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Not at these three camps. You can see that the systematic
 4killings of Jews from central Europe started, for
 5instance, in Minsk. It is the same pattern, like in
 6Chelmno. They first of all brought into the ghetto, but
 7then from May 1942 onwards they killed them on the spot
 8before they came into the ghetto in a small concentration
 9camp called Malitrostiness.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By shooting them?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     By shooting them, yes.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Then of course we have left out of account
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Most, I believe I am right, I do not know whether you
16agree, of the Jews that were taken there were not Polish
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but I should add this. In Belzec, of course, they
19started to kill the local Jews and then, a little bit
20further, the German Jews who were brought into the
21ghettoes in the district of Lublin. Then, as far as they
22survived the conditions of the ghetto, taken to Belzec
23from approximately May/June 1942 onwards.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I just want to look finally, if we may, Dr Longerich, at
25one document which illustrates, I think, at least
26I believe I am right, what you have been telling us about

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