Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 159

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    I am reading it off Mr Irving's website. Your
 14 of 5. Do you have it there?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What Altemeyer is reported by Bruns as having said is
 4this, and I will do my best in English: Here is an order
 5come that mass shootings of this kind in future must no
 6longer happen". Is that all right?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that is right.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am getting on like an interpreter. I am doing well
 9today! "That shall be done more discreetly in future".
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I was a bit confused at the moment because I did not
11take the second ----
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am sorry. It is my fault. You should have had it
13in front of you.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Because he does not say that the mass executions are
15supposed to be stopped, but it says clearly this should be
16done in different, more careful way. So obviously, it
17does not give any date for that. This is a kind of
18reaction to the complaints of the civil administration
19that one should not allow these wild executions to be
20carried out. I think that is quite clear.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think we are now are on the same ground. Lohse has
22stopped the shootings in Lepeier, perhaps elsewhere, one
23does not know, because of the way in which they were
24carried out. He is then told by Berlin that that is
25wrong, in effect?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And here comes Altemeyer at about the same time, am
 2I right?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Saying, you must not do it in this way any more, you must
 5do it more discreetly.
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do those two pieces of evidence in your mind corroborate
 8each other?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think they corroborate each other.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Except for this, that Altemeyer is describing
11an order which prohibits mass shootings (underlined) on
12that scale.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, of this kind.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Oh. I am reading from the translation.
15 MR RAMPTON:     No. That is why I do not want to use the old
16English translation, because it is wrong.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Even so, I think the point needs to be
18answered, of this kind and they need to be carried out
19more discreetly. You do not find that in the 31st October
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is a discrepancy between the two. That
23has to be accepted.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Discrepancy?
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Difference.
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Why is there a discrepancy? I do not get the point.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     The point I am putting to you is that, if you look at the
 2message from Berlin, the top secret message from Berlin
 3signed by Brottigan, all that is really saying is, well,
 4do not worry about economic considerations, just leave it
 5to the local SS. I think Mr Rampton was really asking you
 6whether Altemeyer was not referring to that message when
 7he triumphantly showed General Bruns the order just
 8issued. That was the question, was it not, Mr Rampton?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     More or less.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just wondering whether that is well
11founded, because it appears that he is referring to
12something slightly different.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Altemeyer? Who is Altemeyer.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is a junior officer.
15 MR RAMPTON:     He is a junior SS officer.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     So it obviously is not the same letter.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The background is that obviously the civil administration
19found these mass executions unpleasant, the way they were
20carried out, and they are looking for guidance from the
21Ministry for the Eastern Territories, and they come back
22and say, well, basically these executions have to be
23carried out and any problem has to be solved together with
24the highest SS and police leader. So I think this
25Altemeyer's response could reflect the same kind of
26discussions which was going on, that one has to do it in a

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 1different way. It did not say that the mass executions
 2have to be stopped.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand that.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     That is all. I was anxious to put the two beside
 5each other, because, my Lord, plainly, when they are side
 6by side, what Bruns said about the continuation of
 7shootings implicitly is supported by the contemporaneous
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You did use the word resonance.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, resonance. Then I want to ask you about
11something else very briefly, Dr Longerich. You were asked
12again last week by Mr Irving in effect this. Did they not
13always have to have a pretext when they shot the Jews in
14the East, such as, oh well, they were plundering, or they
15were partisans and so on and so forth?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It becomes clear from the Einsatzgruppen reports.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said, well, there was one absurd case where they
18killed 7,000 Jews because the NKVD had massacred
19some Ukrainians.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we just have a look at the Jager report, with which
22I know you are familiar. You find that at page 147 of the
23blue file, I hope. It is awfully long and it is very
24grisly reading, so I am certainly not going to go through
25it, but it is Einsatzkommando 3, which is part of
26Einsatzgruppen A, is it not?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is by the subordinate officer, somebody called Jager,
 3and it reports that by the 1st December, or the end of
 4November, they have succeeded in slaughtering 137,346
 5people. That is on the sixth page.
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pass over the first few pages to page 3, will you? Now we
 8are in the middle of August 1941, and one needs only to
 9glance at the page, does one not, to see that they are
10recording the murder of large numbers of Jewish men, women
11and children without any reference to any kind of pretext,
12excuse or justification?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Very occasionally, if you turn, for example, to page 151,
15page 5 of the document, you see a pretext. You also see
16incidentally, do you not, that some people from Berlin,
17Munich, Frankfurt, Vienna and Breslow were killed in
18November, towards the end of November, but you see in
19brackets, after some of the entries for October and at the
20bottom of the page, some kind of excuse or pretext, do you
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry, pretext of the killing of the German Jews?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. For example, the last entry for 2nd September 41, a
24teil kommando in Vilner shot a total of about 3,500 Jewish
25women and Jewish children in what they called a
26Sonderaktion because some German soldiers were shot at or

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