Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 159

<< 1-5156-159 >>

 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We can find that, curiously enough, the same day as the
 3meeting between Hitler and Himmler, page 181/182, I hope.
 4I do not know what translation you have beside you, but
 5I much prefer you look at the German anyway. This comes
 6from Rosenberg's office, signed by a man called Brottigan?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Brottigan has signed it.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is in Rosenberg's office?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is writing to Lohse, and he says, "clarification of the
11Jewish question has most likely been achieved by now
12through verbal discussions". Yes?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that all right?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Economic issues or considerations must fundamentally or
17generally be disregarded in the settlement or disposition
18of this problem"?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, generally.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Generally, yes. "As for the rest, moreover, I would ask
21that any questions arising should be settled directly with
22the higher SS and police leaders". Is that right?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is right, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What historical conclusions do you draw from this exchange
25of correspondence?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think there was a kind of battle or a kind of conflict

.   P-106

 1going on between the SS representatives, through the
 2higher SS police leader, and the civil administration.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The higher SS and police leader was Jeckeln, was it not?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on.
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Because the civil administration, in their own handbook
 7they were not aware of the fact that actually the aim of
 8the SS was to kill all the Jews in Ostland, and so this
 9letter first of all led to Lohse stopping these executions
10in Lepeier, and then asking the ministry for the occupied
11territories in Berlin, what shall I do? It took them
12about five weeks to reply, and here the answer is quite
13clear, the economic considerations do not play a role any
14more. You can leave this aside and, if there is any
15further problems, discuss this directly with the higher SS
16and police leader.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So in effect he is being told to surrender, am I right
18control over this interpretation?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It would be my interpretation of this exchange.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Surrender control to the SS?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it significant or is it not that this is
25 MR IRVING:     I am just about to point that out, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Were you?

.   P-107

 1 MR IRVING:     Yes. I was wondering how to do so, in fact.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Just say it. I do not mind.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The significance being that, on the face of
 5it, this is not a desperately secret communication?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry?
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     If you take at face value, it is not a terribly secret
 8communication, is it?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think it is quite clear from this communication that, if
10you take the three letters that this means the death of
11the Jews in the Generalegouvernement. There is no way the
12civil administration can interfere any more.
13 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is why they put Geheimer Reichsacher on it?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is what I assume.
15 MR IRVING:     Just note who signed that letter. It is Brottigan,
16is it not?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Brottigan, yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is an adjutant of Rosenberg?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, one of his closest advisers.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Rosenberg, Lohse, Brottigan, they are all civil
21servants, are they not?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you familiar with -- I call it the evidence -- the
24conversation of General Walter Bruns, which was recorded
25by the British when he was in captivity?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I am familiar with this document.

.   P-108

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you recall that they recorded him -- I am going to
 2torture you with some of my German but it saves getting it
 3out -- as having said that a man called Altemeyer, he had
 4been upset, so he said, with these shootings?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They sent somebody back to Berlin they said with a message
 7for Hitler via Canaris. You know the story?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I know the story.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This SS person Altemeyer comes back from Berlin with
10triumphantly a message, and saying this: Here is (German)
11do you remember that?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I expect you know it off by heart.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The question is whether that last remark of Bruns has in
16your mind any resonance with this exchange of
17correspondence between Lohse and Rosenberg?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The date of Bruns, that was 1st November, was
21 MR RAMPTON:     He was talking about what had been going on in
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but 1st November being the date when
24that conversation ----
25 MR RAMPTON:     I cannot the remember the date. It was sometime
26in 1945, I think.

.   P-109

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I mean when whatever his name was came
 2back ----
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Early December, after the message from -- I think
 4early December. I think we are agreed about that.
 5 MR IRVING:     It was a few days later.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, after the message from Himmler to Jeckeln.
 7My question is this. Do you see any relationship or
 8resonance between what Bruns said later in captivity and
 9the correspondence between Lohse and Rosenberg about the
10manner of the shootings?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This correspondence means, in a way, a carte blanche for
12the SS to carry on with the executions, so I think it is a
13complete contradiction to this.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Contradiction?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry, maybe I did not recall the ----
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sorry, perhaps you should have the Bruns in front of
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is the problem, is it not, in a
19way? I am trying to find it and I cannot remember where
20it is.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I am reading it off Mr Irving's website. Your
22Lordship has it in J1, tab 4, but not the German. Do not
23look at the English. It is very bad English. It is a bad
24translation. Can we just put that in front of witness,
25please and one for the judge. (Same handed) The relevant
26piece of German, Dr Longerich, is at the top of the page,

.   P-110

<< 1-5156-159 >>