Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 159

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     All three were still in operation.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did none of them have a labour side to them?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     They were all purely death camps?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Only a very small number of prisoners were used for labour
 6assignments, only several hundred, several dozens.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Now I am passing to something completely
 8different, Dr Longerich, and that is this. You were asked
 9last week by Mr Irving to comment on the police decodes,
10do you remember, the British police decodes of the
11messages which passed between Himmler and Jeckeln at the
12beginning of December 1941?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In which it is clear that Jeckeln had done something that
15Himmler was not pleased about, but did not, as you pointed
16out, result in any kind of sanction or punishment against
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is true, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is a document which was disclosed by Mr Irving which
20you may feel needs to be explained. It is not a document
21which is part of your original report and therefore we
22have not really looked at it before but perhaps one could
23do it now. You will find it at page 110 of the blue
24file. I think it is 110. It is a somewhat fragmentary
25copy of a document that looks a bit like a Nuremberg
26document. That is 111, sorry. That is the one I want you

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 1to look at first, if you will, 111?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Has it got some words missing from the first line of the
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Ich habe die (blank) Juden execution, yes?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think you were good enough to find us the complete
 9version of that, and this is terrible. The Americans or
10whoever it is even managed to muck up the German grammar
11because in fact it is execution ----.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see, you are 111 and 110 is what he
13has found.
14 MR RAMPTON:     If you go back to 110, it is the real thing, or
15much closer to the real thing anyway.
16 MR IRVING:     109.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry. You are quite right. I missed a page.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may be the same as 110. I think we all
19have different pagination.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you very much. It is letter dated 15th
21November 1941, although the 4 is missing from the date
22line, I think from a man called Lohse, who I think is the
23ReichsKommissar for the Ostland, is he not?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is the Baltic States, essentially, is it not?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     And white Russia.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And white Russia. He has written a letter to the
 2Reichsminister for the occupied Eastern territories in
 3Berlin, who I think was Rosenberg, was he not?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On the left-hand side we have made a translation -- this
 6is a somewhat literal translation. Does your translation
 7start, "I have forbidden the wild executions of Jews in
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have forbidden the uncontrolled ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, he has the same one as me. Does your Lordship's
11translation ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have got "wild executions". Does it really
13matter in the end?
14 MR RAMPTON:     Probably not. Lepeier is a town in Latvia on the
15coast, is it not?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will just read it, if I may. I will read it in the
18version that his Lordship has: "I have forbidden the wild
19executions of Jews in Lepeier because they were not
20justifiable in the manner in which they were carried out.
21I should like to be informed whether your enquiry of 31st
22October is to be regarded as a directive to liquidate all
23Jews in the East. Shall this take place without regard to
24age and sex and economic interests of the Wehrmacht, for
25instance, in specialists in the armament industry?" Then,
26for some reason, Mr Irving has put in "note in different

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 1handwriting". I do not understand that. Not on the copy
 2I have got. "Of course, the cleansing of the East of Jews
 3is a necessary task". I prefer, Dr Longerich, a "priority
 4task". Is that not a better translation?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "But its solution must be reconciled with the requirements
 7of the war economy". I am sorry, I am reading from my own
 8translation. Is that right in the German?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that is right in the German.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Neither from the orders concerning the Jewish question in
11the brown file nor from any other ordinance have
12I hitherto been able to infer or deduce such an order or
13instruction". Is that correct as a matter of translation?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What are they actually talking about, Dr Longerich?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They are talking -- Lohse is complaining about, as he
17called it, wild uncontrolled, unauthorized probably,
18execution of Jews, mass execution of Jews in Lepeier. He
19says, well, what is the meaning of that, does it mean that
20all Jews in the Ostland, this is his territory, should be
21liquidated? This would of course bring the economic
22consideration of Wehrmacht into danger, and it is not
23according to the guidelines I have in my own handbook, in
24the brown ----
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Can we then turn back to what prompted that letter,
26which is page 104/105, for which also we have to thank you

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 1I think. Now this is a very short letter from somebody
 2I think called Librandt?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He is in Rosenberg's office, is he?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He has written to Lohse, or to somebody in Lohse's office,
 7saying, in effect, "The RHSA has complained that the
 8Reichs Commissioner for the Ostland has forbidden the
 9execution of Jews in Lepeier in the matter referred to
10above. I request urgently a report from you". Yes?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So then we get the response from Lohse saying: "Am I to
13take (this letter we are looking at) as an order that
14I have to kill all the Jews?" Is that right?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that what happened?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     So then again we went through the second letter, and then
18Lohse writes this letter, well, what do you want me to do
19about that? We just went through the letter.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. He explains that he forbad the executions because of
21the way in which they were carried out.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     . Yes,.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Unauthorized or uncontrolled?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now we can look and see what the response was, which comes
26on 18th December 1941, I think.

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