Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition

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1996 I. No. 113
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Monday, 28th February 2000
10Claimant -and-
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell &Company)

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 1 (10.00 a.m.)
 2 < Dr Longerich, Recalled.
 3< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 5 MR IRVING:     Before we start, there is one thing I would like to
 6do. Dr Longerich has used me as a post box. I have no
 7idea what these things are. There are some documents
 8I think that he sent for. I cannot speak to him so can
 9I hand them to him now? I do not know what they are.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Mr Irving, it is sensible just to clear
11this up.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have a problem. I have brought the
13wrong file with me so I am going to have to go back to
14Duke Street to get it, which will take half an hour,
15unfortunately, which is extremely stupid of me.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     These things happen. You have done pretty
17well so far. Just let us sort out these documents first.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps your Lordship would deal with it. As I
19say, I have not spoken to Dr Longerich today, They arrived
20in my chambers this morning.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dr Longerich, take us through them one by
22one. Have you got copies, first of all, for Mr Irving and
23for everyone else.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I have copies here, yes.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is just I asked the Institute in Munich to provide me
26with a number of documents, two or three, concerning the

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 1vernichtung arbeit in relation to work we discussed on
 2Thursday. If necessary, I can provide these documents,
 3and I can quote from them. I used Mr Rampton's fax
 4machine because there was no other way to get them here in
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How do these documents help?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know. It is just in case if we expand. I do not
 8want to use them. I do not suggest we use them but, if we
 9go and discuss this point further, I am here to provide
10evidence that the term vernichtung arbeit was used during
11the war. It is not a post war expression.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think what I will do is suggest that we
13leave this until re-examination by Mr Rampton. Does that
14apply to all of the documents you have, what you just
15said? Is that just one document you are talking about, or
16the whole lot?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     There are two or three.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     There are not any other documents?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, not at the moment.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Can I suggest, my Lord, that we use a little bit
21of re-examination as evidence-in-chief to deal with these
22documents and then, if Mr Irving wants to ask anything
23arising out of that, he should do but not now.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not mind when it happens. I do not
25suppose Mr Irving minds when it happens.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Dr Longerich ought to have a chance to read them

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 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you handed in a clip. Should I
 3spend some of the time looking through that or not?
 4 MR IRVING:     I can tell your Lordship what they are. You asked
 5for a translation of the Wannsee protocol, and that is one
 6of them. I have also provided your Lordship with a
 7complete translation of the Karl Wolff manuscript,
 8and ----
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Are we allowed to have them?
10 MR IRVING:     Yes. I faxed a copy of it to the instructing
11solicitors over the weekend, but I also emailed it. My
12Lord, I think this is a proper time to say that at some
13time today I will be making submissions on the relevance
14of right-wing extremism. Quite simply, this is, I think,
15the proper time to do it, obviously not while
16Dr Longerich, his metre is running, so to speak, probably
17this afternoon some time, and I shall be asking your
18Lordship to possibly have a look at the appropriate page
19of Gatley into which I have read more deeply than Mein
20Kampf, I have to admit. I think it is page 43 of Gatley
21that I draw your Lordship's attention to and I think
22footnote 88, in particular. Your Lordship will see the
23relevance of that. It is Devlin L. It is the Butalazi
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The which?
26 MR IRVING:     Butalazi, there was a case on, I am sure your

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 1Lordship is familiar with the kind of authorities.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not perhaps one of the best known
 3cases, but I think I know there was one.
 4 MR IRVING:     It is purely the question of whether extremism is
 5defamatory, what is meant by extremism. I think we ought
 6really to look at that.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You certainly make your submissions and
 8I agree the timing is best after Dr Longerich.
 9 MR IRVING:     The other point which I wish to take up with your
10Lordship, very briefly, is that I am not getting the
11digital transcript.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right.
13 MR IRVING:     I am only getting a paper transcript. A dispute
14has arisen with the court reporters over the provision to
15me of the digital transcript. I have not it since
16February 3rd. It is a serious disadvantage to me. I have
17offered them money. I have offered them other
18inducements. This is a matter which I would like your
19Lordship to give a friendly word to the court reporting
20service that ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will have to tell me a little bit more
22about the reasons they give for not giving the digital
24 MR IRVING:     Indeed.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I mean, I have a feeling that I know what the
26problem is but you ----

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