Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 212

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If you look into, let us say, orders of a Kommando of a
 2regiment, of an Army, he would refer to his own orders.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Chain of command, is it not?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is a chain of command, yes.
 5 MR IRVING:     Did Jager get into trouble carrying out any
 6killings round about this time in 1941?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did Jager get into trouble for authorising killings in
 91941, the same as Jeckeln?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     As far as I am aware, not. The man who had responsibility
11for killing of German Jews in this area was Jeckeln. We
12know that he got a nasty letter from Himmler and that was
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which we have gone into in some detail. Page 13, line 3:
15What is your evidence that all Jewish men in this age
16group had been murdered? I am looking at your word
17murdered. Surely they might just have been sent off to
18work details or something like that, the fact that they
19had gone?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. The Einsatzgruppen reports refer quite clearly to
21executions, and I think this is something which
22I understood as murder.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You said that they were just murdering women. Older men
24and children.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You suggested that this was proof that all the rest had

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 1been murdered already.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, where are we going with all of
 3this? Here we have a whole body of reports from
 4Einsatzgruppen A, B, C and D. They all talk of hundreds
 5or thousands of people, Jews and others, having been
 6killed by them.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point of selecting tiny little
 9aspects of one or two of those reports? If you are saying
10they made it all up, fine, say so. Put it to the
11witness. But, if you do not say that, let us move on to
12what matters.
13 MR IRVING:     My point was that he was drawing an unjustified
14inference on the basis of the evidence in front of him.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have accepted, and perhaps you are going
16to resile from this, that hundreds of thousands of Jews
17and others were killed by the Einsatzgruppen.
18 MR IRVING:     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why are we going through these reports? I do
20not understand the point.
21 MR IRVING:     I am trying to shake your Lordship's confidence in
22this witness's ability to draw proper inferences from
23documents before him.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there is no dispute between you and the
25witness that there were hundreds of thousands of killings,
26what do I gain from a minute point being taken on a

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 1particular report?
 2 MR IRVING:     The whole report is full of minute points.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you accept there were hundreds of
 4thousands of Jews and others killed.
 5 MR IRVING:     Indeed, my Lord. If the report had been written in
 6global terms like that, then I would have dealt with it in
 7global terms, but he has written an excellent report full
 8of mosaic stones.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But you do not quarrel with the picture made
10up of all the mosaic.
11 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 2.2.4 on page 14. Here you are quoting a
12witness called Otto Bradfisch, who says quite clearly
13there was no express order to exterminate the Jewish
14population in a place or area solely because of its racial
15origin. What do you make of that statement? I am looking
16at "no express order".
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, it says here that----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have read the whole of it.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     "To exterminate the Jewish population in a place or area
20solely and alone because of its racial origin". I said in
21the same sentence, "Nevertheless in practice the orders
22given by the EKB as the Einsatzgruppen B were so broadly
23conceived that every Jew was regarded as a danger for the
24fighting troops and therefore to be liquidated". This is
25a statement. So he is saying that we had to find another
26pretext, another cover, to kill them. That is the essence

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 1of this statement, I think.
 2 MR IRVING:     Very well. Dr Longerich, you attach great
 3importance, do you not, to this Himmler Hitler
 4conversation of December 18th 1941?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think this is quite a remarkable source, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have inferred from that that the als partisan and
 7anzusehen is words used by Hitler to Himmler.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It does not say as partisan and anzusehen.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ausrottung?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, to be ausrottung as partisans. This is what it says.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and you considered that phrase is used by Hitler to
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but is it not equally likely that this was a standard
15attitude of Himmler's long before he went to see Hitler,
16that Hitler had always regarded the Jews as partisans and
17to be treated as such?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not read it like this.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to look at page 15, line 4? You have here
20"Himmler had already expressed on his visit to Galestov
21on July 8th that -- I am quoting now -- basically every
22Jew is to be seen as a partisan". Is that not precisely
23the same phrase?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your footnote 67 (German) is that not almost exactly the
26same kind of turn of phrase that Hitler has used?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. This line in Himmler's calendar is a confirmation of
 2this policy. It is true that Himmler had started this
 3policy earlier. He started it in the summer of 1941 and
 4I will read this as a final confirmation of this policy by
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I take you please to page 22, line 5?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     May I once again ----
 8 MR IRVING:     Oh dear. Here comes the interruption every time
 9I make a point.
10 MR RAMPTON:     This is going to be a very tedious day if I am
11going to have to keep going back to earlier parts of the
12evidence. If Mr Irving is now saying, as he appears to
13be, that that entry in Himmler's log for 18th December
141941 does not record the substance or result of a
15conversation with Adolf Hitler, he had better put it to
16this witness, because it is new.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The suggestion that I understand was just
18made is that in his agenda or appointments book Himmler
19jotted down what Hitler had said months or years before.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I thought until half a minute ago that that had
21been common ground since the beginning of this case.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So did I.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving is once again shifting his ground. Now
24he must put it to the witness.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, that must have been the thrust of
26your question.

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