Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 212

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 1 MR IRVING:     If your Lordship wishes then we will move on.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that so clear.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can I just emphasise that the last line in that
 4says: "Jews in party and state functions." It does not
 5say "all Jews, including those in party and state
 6functions", does it?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know whether I have to repeat this.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     It just says: "All Jews in party and state functions"?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know whether I have to repeat this, but from the
10German original it is quite clear that the "all" relates
11to all the following categories. So it has to be read
12as "All Jews in party and state functions", that is quite
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is what I am saying. You do not say that it says:
15"All Jews including those in party"?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, it says: "All Jews in party and state positions".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is very limited, is it not?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, in a state which has a state-run economy the number
19is I think relatively, the number is relatively large.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are including everybody in the entire economy?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If you have a manager of a firm which belongs to the
22State, he is a functionary of the state.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     The reason I am saying this, Dr Longerich, is because in
24your opening sentence in paragraph 7 on page 7, you say,
25"This order", in other words, this document, "is
26certainly not to be interpreted as meaning that Heydrich

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 1intended to limit the executions to those Jews who held
 2party and state functions." Why not? That is precisely
 3what it does say?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I give you the explanation in the following sentence.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is very much within the guidelines that Hitler had
 6laid down, saying: "Kill the Jewish intelligentsia"?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but the fact that also this order relates to other
 8radical elements I think makes it quite clear that you
 9could kill Jews under other headings than Jews in party
10and state positions.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are relying on that?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If you look at the Einsatzgruppen reports, they are going
13to kill in the next weeks, they are going to kill Jews who
14were not in state and party positions. They were killing,
15for instance, the Jewish intelligentsia. They were going
16in the following, they were starting in July 1941 to kill
17all men of military age. So I try to interpret this
18instruction in the light of the following events. I think
19from the following events it becomes quite clear that the
20intention of instruction is not to limit the executions to
21Jews in party and state positions. But, let us say, that
22it is the first group where they would start to kill
23people, the first group to start with. You see the
24instructions, I think you have to go back to the context,
25this is a kind of summary of verbal instructions Heydrich
26gave to the Einsatzgruppen, and he is just informing the

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 1highest SS leaders about this verbal instruction. It is a
 2summary. We do not have the verbal instructions. We are
 3trying to reconstruct the verbal instructions, but I think
 4the verbal instructions were different than this here.
 5The verbal instructions tended to include more Jews than
 6this intention.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So your paragraph 7 relies on three sources: Verbal
 8instructions for which you have no source; the document
 9itself and what you know to have happened, in other words,
10presumptions backwards towards the document, so to speak.
11So your opening sentence there about the order is not to
12be interpreted as meaning, is based on more than just the
13document itself?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, give me some time, please. I think I refer here and
15in the following, we have numerous eyewitnesses actually
16who stated, go so far to state after the war that actually
17that these instructions of Heydrich were the order to kill
18all Jews in the Soviet Union. I am trying to, I spent a
19lot of time, I am trying to reconstruct the context of
20these verbal instructions.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you go to the next page, please, and look at your list
22of footnotes on the next page?
23 MR RAMPTON:     Could I please intervene once again? Mr Irving is
24quite incorrigible. This kind of cross-examination would
25never be permitted in a professional advocate. Can we
26please go back to page 5, paragraph 2, which Mr Irving

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 1leapt over.
 2 MR IRVING:     I am leaping forwards because his Lordship wishes
 3to make progress.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are dotting about. I do not find this
 5very helpful and I have got well in mind what you said in
 6the course of your cross-examination which is why I have
 7not highlighted anything for quite a while now. Anyway,
 8page 5, Mr Rampton.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Page 5 which Mr Irving leapt over because it is
10inconvenient for him, paragraph 2 which is a document
11dated 19th May 1941.
12 MR IRVING:     I think this is a most unhelpful interruption.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It really flows from the way in which you are
14carrying out your cross-examination. You are dotting
15about the report and you are cherry picking again.
16Mr Rampton is perfectly entitled to say, if you are really
17suggesting, that the instructions to kill the Jews was
18limited as you have just been suggesting to Dr Longerich,
19Mr Rampton is certainly perfectly entitled to say, well,
20you are missing out some of the documents which give the
21full picture. .
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we have dealt with these May and March
23documents exhaustively over the past few days. I am very
24happy to deal with every single document that is mentioned
25in this report, but then once again I will fall foul of
26your Lordships reprimands.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would find it more helpful if you were to
 2deal with it not so much by going to individual references
 3but at any rate to start by a number of broader brush
 4questions. The difficulty in this part of the case is
 5that you are shifting your position. I think there is no
 6doubt about that.
 7 MR IRVING:     Shifting my position?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     I am trying to establish the weaknesses of this
10expert report as well as I can.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It is not permissible to do that, in my
12submission, by a kind of memory test when the foundation
13for what the witness has said in a later paragraph is to
14be found in an earlier paragraph. It is simply cheating.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, Mr Irving, I cannot conduct the
16cross-examination for you. Dr Longerich, do you regard
17the guidelines referred to, the 19th May guidelines, as
18being limited to Jewish intelligentsia, the few holding
19senior positions in the State or in the Party?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I mentioned this before. I said this is the order which
21was read out on company level, so every German soldier was
22aware of these guidelines. It plainly says Jews. It
23refers to energetic and drastic measures against the
24Bolshevik agitators, gorillas, saboteurs, Jews. So Jews
25are here mentioned among partisans and members of the
26Bolshevik Party.

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