Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 212

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 5, paragraph 3, you say that the Einsatzgruppen
 2consisted of 3,000 men. Is that the total number of men?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     About a little bit more than 3,000 I think. Yes, it is
 43,000. Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     That seems a remarkably small force if we are to believe
 6the enormous statistical figures that have been thrust
 7upon us over the last few weeks.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know whether it is mentioned in the next
 9paragraph, but the forces who carried out this killing
10operation consists of the Einsatzgruppen, of police
11battalions and of the two Waffen SS Breigetz, so
12altogether this was a force of about 30,000 men. We have,
13as far as the Einsatzgruppen are concerned, this excellent
14documentation, the Ereignismeldung uber der SSR, but it is
15also clear from the documents that also other units like
16the Order Police units like the Waffen SS Breigetz were
17active in killing people. We have sources which explain
18to us that the Wehrmacht, in many cases, was actively
19involved in these killings, and most important is that the
20SS and the police built up a force of auxiliary policemen
21in the area which had a strength in 1942 for about 300,000
22men. We have a lot of evidence that these men were also
23actively involved in the killings.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     They were using the locals, were they?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They use the locals as auxiliary police. The general rule
26was that then the SS, the SD people would carry out their

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 1killings and so they would shoot people themselves, and
 2use the auxiliary SS to seal off the area. So it is not a
 3problem manpower shortage to carry out this operation.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 6, we are going to look at paragraph 6 which is
 5the Heydrich order of July 2nd 1941. You are familiar
 6with that order, are you not?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is one which, in part for example, said to instigate
 9pogroms or where pogroms were instigated by the locals to
10turn a blind eye and generally to jolly them along and not
11to get in the way.
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have two questions on this document, Dr Longerich. The
14first one is where does it come from? Is it from Russian
15files or from Western files?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Are we talking about the 2nd July document?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     The 2nd July document.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is a document which comes from the Moscow archive.
19It was given to the court in Koblenz which dealt with the
20Heuser case in 1963. It has been available in the Federal
21archives since 1963.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is the authenticity of that document
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     I just want to ask him a question.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not by you, by Mr Irving.

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 1 MR IRVING:     No.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it is, challenge it, if it is not, let us
 3move on.
 4 MR IRVING:     I can only ask the most general questions. I can
 5say, Dr Longerich, are you thoroughly content that all the
 6documents that come from the Soviet Union ----?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Irving, that will not do. Are you
 8suggesting that it is not an authentic document? If so,
 9cross-examine on that basis. If you are not suggesting
10that it is not authentic, then move on.
11 MR IRVING:     Would you look at the last line on that page
12please: "Jews in Party and State functions". Will you
13not accept that this limits the killing of Jews in this
14document, just the "Jews in Party and State functions"?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have to go back to this point I made yesterday.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     There is a mistake here and I have to repeat that ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I remember the point.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The word "all" should be in the first line, so this has to
20be read as: "All Jews and Party and State functions", so
21we know that the Soviet Union was a country where the
22state played an enormous role. So this would apply to,
23let us say, teachers, to every Civil, not only to every
24Civil Servant, it would apply to any manager of a State
25opened shop, for instance. So I think the number is quite
26high, it is several hundred thousand. I forgot to say

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 1when we went through this document yesterday, I think ----
 2 MR IRVING:     You look at the unsoweiter, do you not?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I forget this yesterday. In the same document Heydrich
 4suggested to instigate pogroms. If you have a pogrom you
 5cannot actually ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Limit it?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Limit it. You do not have any control about who you are
 8going to kill. A pogrom is a wide massacre. So if you
 9encourage the local population to organize massacres, you
10do not have any control about the outcome of this
11massacre. So I think I read this, this telegram, or this
12instruction, sorry, actually in this is a kind of
13message. You can kill all Jews of party and state
14function, but there is not a specific definition of the
15people who are going to be killed. Jews, if they are
16suspicious, if they are propagandist, etc., you can also
17go to kill them. There is also a reference in the
18guidelines on page 5, in the guidelines for the troops in
19Russia. These are guidelines which are read out on
20company 11, every company of Wehrmacht. It says in
21sentence 2: "The struggle demands ruthless energetic and
22drastic measures against the Bolsheviks agitators,
23guerrillas, saboteurs and Jews", and Jews. There is
24nothing about Jews in party and state position. So every
25soldier of the Wehrmacht knew that this was a war against
26the Jews, among others.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     It does not say, that paragraph, "You are going kill all
 2the Bolsheviks agitators"?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, but it says.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     It says just: "Drastic measures, ruthless"?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Exactly energetic and drastic measures, and we know that
 6the Wehrmacht then in the following month was in many
 7cases involved in the killing of Jews civilians.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, I am going to have hold you to the actual
 9wording of that July 2nd telegram. I am going to suggest
10strongly that you using the word "all" to embrace all five
11lines is not justified?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The German is (German spoken). That is the only use of
14the word "all," is it not?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just look at it on the page.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In the original the "all" is in the first line.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am interrupting because we must
18get on. Just look at it on the page. It is page 30.
19 MR IRVING:     Page?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is quite impossible to say that "all" ----
21 MR IRVING:     Page 30 of what, my Lord?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- this new bundle, reproducing yet again
23most of the documents called N1, it is quite obvious that
24"all" qualifies everybody on the list, including Jews in
25state and party positions. That is beyond argument. Page
2630, bottom of the page.

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