Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 6 - 10 of 212

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    To which Mr Irving does not have access.
 1I take your point entirely, Dr Longerich, but shall we
 2just see what the question is and see whether you can
 3cope. If you do not feel you can ----
 4 MR IRVING:     My position would be of course, my Lord, that this
 5was the document that was before me when I was writing my
 6book, this handwritten extract.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     But you were allowed to make photocopies from the
 8document. I would really prefer to see a photocopy instead
 9of your handwritten notes on the document.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you have a photocopy, Mr Irving?
11 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. I was not allowed to make photocopies
12on this particular one.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Proceed fairly cautiously. What is the
15 MR IRVING:     If you will now look at the translation, which is
16on page 10, this is an explanation, is it not? It is an
17extract, first of all, from a confidential manuscript by
18Karl Wolff dated May 11th 1952, and he is referring to the
19effect on Himmler of the assassination of Heydrich. In
20the second paragraph Wolff expresses the rather
21extraordinary view that perhaps 70 men all told from
22Himmler to Hoess were involved in the extermination of the
23Jews. Then there is something which I put in quotation
24marks. The inference is that it is actually words from
25the document: "Bormann and Himmler probably represented
26the view that the Jewish problem had to be dealt with

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 1without Hitler getting his fingers dirty on it."
 2     Then the next paragraph says: "After the mass
 3epidemic at Auschwitz, the idea of deliberate mass deaths
 4probably occurred. Himmler was in his way bizarre and
 5religious and held to the view that for the greatest war
 6Lord and the greatest war of all times he had take upon
 7himself tasks which had to be solved to put Hitler's ideas
 8into effect without engaging him", that is Hitler
 9personally ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to
11interrupt you now. This is, it seems to me, of fairly
12central potential importance.
13 MR IRVING:     In two ways, my Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did not know what it was going to say. It
15is wholly unsatisfactory, is it not, to have your
16manuscript rendition, if that is the right word, of parts
17of this document? Is there an insuperable problem about
18getting hold of a photocopy of it?
19 MR IRVING:     I will ask the Institute if they will provide me
20with a photocopy.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Or even the Defendants might get a more
22helpful reaction to a request for a photocopy of this
24 MR RAMPTON:     We might, but I have to say this is a note of
25something that Karl Wolff, a high ranking SS officer close
26to Himmler and Hitler, said in 1952.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is potentially self-exculpatory, I can see
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is a comment that I would make about it. The
 4reason I say that now is that I do not know that I believe
 5that it is worth, frankly, our time and trouble going to
 6get the original from Munich.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Can I make a comment here, or a question?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, please do.
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is your interview with Karl Wolff?
10 MR IRVING:     Good Lord, no.
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     You referred yesterday to a confidential manuscript by
12Karl Wolff. This is not a part of the confidential
13manuscript. This is part of the collection of testimonies
14collected by the Institute in the 1950s. You can
15recognize it by these reference numbers shown in German.
16It is an open class. I think, if you phone the Institute,
17you can get a photocopy within three hours or so.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I would have thought.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is open class. There is no need to rely on handwritten
20excerpts, anything of this kind.
21 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You see, I am a bit unhappy, I will be frank, Mr Irving,
22that there are dots immediately before and immediately
23after the passage that you rely on.
24 MR IRVING:     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that is satisfactory and
26I think the witness is entitled to take the position,

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 1"I am not prepared to comment unless I have the entire
 2document in front of me". Whether it has any weight or
 3not is another matter.
 4 MR IRVING:     The only weight that it might possibly have is of
 5course that I relied heavily on my extracts from the Wolff
 6manuscript in writing my books.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is not the Wolff manuscript.
 8 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will recognise passages from this
 9manuscript as they are represented and summarized in the
10Hitler's War.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     My response to that is whether an objective
12historian could and should have placed weight on this
13document must depend on the whole terms of it, not just on
14selective extracts.
15 MR IRVING:     Of course I saw the whole document when I sat there
16making the extracts.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course you did, but I think we need to see
18the whole document to see whether you should have attached
19the weight you say you did attach to it.
20 MR IRVING:     I will try to obtain it, but of course I cannot
21obtain it today.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am wondering whether, if it really is a
23matter of three hours, and I do not see why it should not
24be, as Dr Longerich says, somebody could not perhaps even
25go and place a telephone call now.
26 MR RAMPTON:     The best person to do that is the gentleman in the

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 1witness box. I may be speaking out of turn but I think he
 2is the one that carries the clout so far as the Institute
 3in Munich is concerned. It may be that one of my German
 4researchers would be able to do it and see if we can get
 5it before close of play today.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I was hoping. I will leave it
 7to you. I think I am going to ask you to leave this
 8document and come back to it. We will come back to it
 9anyway but come back to it if we get the proper document.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I am told that they do not feel they can do it.
11Could I have permission to speak to Dr Longerich about it
12at the adjournment? Maybe he can make a telephone call at
13lunch time.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, if it really cannot be done before then.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I am told, I do not know reasons are, that it
16would be difficult for anybody but him to do it. Perhaps
17I could be a little unorthodox and ask him now?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, why not? Do you mind, Mr Irving? It is
19a bit unorthodox.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Could you make a telephone call at lunch time?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If you give me a phone.
22 MR RAMPTON:     We will give you a phone.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, sir.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     (After a pause) Sorry, is this a break?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, it is not. Mr Irving, carry on.

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