Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 212

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    Yes. It is quite clear because the numbers here were
 1divided into a women's camp and into a men's camp, so this
 2gives you an indication that this relates clearly to the
 3slave labour camp and nothing to do with the extermination
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which camp would be meant by "Lublin"?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is the -- this is Maidonek, complex of camps really.
 7 MR IRVING:     If you go now to the next page after that
 8statistical table, you have three pages showing a graph
 9showing how over the three or four years, 1940 to 1943,
10the mortality has soared from various causes. There are
11quite visible peak. There is a big peak around about
12March 1943 which is on the second page.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you explain for our benefit what this
14covers? Is it all concentration camps?
15 MR IRVING:     It is all the camps. I draw the witness's
16attention first to the third of three pages. It has a
17rubber stamp. The senior doctor on Pohl's staff. In
18other words, he is the head doctor or, I suppose, the
19surgeon general of the concentration camp system. It has
20Himmler's initials on this document on the third page.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Where is that? Which page?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have the graphs?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     It will be the last page but one before the big yellow
25sheet. Do you see, it has a rubber stamp saying that,
26effectively, it is the surgeon general of the

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 1concentration camp system?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the right it has Heinrich Himmler's own initials, so it
 4has been submitted to Himmler?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     And it is a graph showing, the bottom two curves are the
 7percentage figures, the middle curve is a percentage
 8figure, the bottom curve appears to be numbers of death
 9per month and the upper curve appears to be a cumulative
10figure. But it is difficult to interpret, and I am not a
11statistician, all I am going to say is there are quite
12clear peaks. They have gone through crises. Would you
13accept that that is a fair statement?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     There were differences in the monthly death rate, yes,
15I can see that.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the final page is the yellow page right at the end
17which is a contrast of the mortality rates in the
18concentration camps in the second half year of 1942
19compared with the second half year of 1943. Again you can
20see in August and September 1942 and in August and
21September 1943 they have gone through a serious crisis of
22some kind. There have been 11,000 deaths, 12,000 deaths,
23in the concentration camp system in corresponding August
24and September of both years. So I am only going to ask
25one or two general questions now from what you have seen.
26In other words, there was a very high mortality rate in

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 1these concentration camps?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, indeed.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     How did they dispose of the bodies?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I am actually not prepared to -- I mean, I am not
 5prepared here to comment on the concentration camps, but,
 6as far as I know, they burnt the bodies in crematoria.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     In crematoria, yes. If these deaths had been caused
 8through epidemics, would that be an appropriate way of
 9disposing of the bodies?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think so.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any indication as to what the major cause of
12deaths in Auschwitz was in 1942 or 1943?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not think I should guess at what I think. As far as
14I recall it, it was typhus, but I am not sure. I am not
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you even seen any references to this epidemic in the
17police decodes at the Public Record Office or in the
18United States?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any references to the camp at Auschwitz
21being quarantined of what is called a lager spare?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I cannot recall that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, that is the only questions I have to put on the
24death statistics.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that you are really putting
26what I suspect may be your case. Are you suggesting (and

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 1I am not sure this is the right witness anyway) that the
 2crematoria were solely being used in order to burn the
 3corpses of those who are shown on this graph to have died
 4from typhus?
 5 MR IRVING:     Let me put two or three more questions in that
 6direction then, my Lord, to nail it down.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, because if that is your case, you must
 8put it fair and square and it may be Dr Longerich will
 9say, "Well, I am not the right person to ask".
10 MR IRVING:     But he is not the right expert, yes. Dr Longerich,
11from your knowledge of the concentration camp system or
12its workings, who would have the job of disposing of the
13bodies in the crematoria? Would that be the
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think so, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     And would they remove all the gold and valuables from
17these bodies first?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it be a very grisly and memorable task?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I would suppose so, yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not think really, my Lord, I can ask any further
22questions on that.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not sure, I am not really sure, I am also -- actually
24I am not prepared to go into details about the history of
25Auschwitz, and if this is a kind of, I do not know, I am
26not too sure about the sonderkommando here, and I should

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 1probably -- we had expert in Auschwitz and I should
 2probably simply say I am not sure here.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Can I make a suggestion? If these documents be
 4thought important, and if it be Mr Irving's case (which,
 5by implication, I suppose it must be, forget all the other
 6camps mentioned in these documents as they are nothing to
 7do with this case) that the reference to Auschwitz is a
 8reference to Auschwitz Birkenhau, then I think maybe the
 9right thing to do, I do not know what your Lordship
10thinks, this gentleman is not an expert on Auschwitz, is
11to send these documents to Professor van Pelt and get him
12to put something in writing as a supplement to his report
13by of commentary on these documents.
14 MR IRVING:     Together with the appropriate part of the
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, certainly.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The first thing, though, is to get clear and,
18I mean, it is what I was trying to do, and I think
19Mr Rampton is also wishing for clarification, quite what
20you are making of these graphs. They are new and I have
21no doubt there are good explanations why they were not put
22to Professor van Pelt. But are you suggesting, just take
23Auschwitz because we have not gone into detail in the
24other camps, that the deaths that one infers were taking
25place at Auschwitz from these graphs were the reason why
26the crematoria were being employed in the way that various

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