Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 196 - 200 of 212

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    He has not said he is not; he has just said
 1he has not seen it before.
 2 MR IRVING:     He is unhappy about it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But, I mean, it is a bit unsatisfactory if
 4there are not any copies for anybody else because
 5Mr Rampton would like probably to follow it as well.
 6 MR IRVING:     I am just hopelessly badly prepared, unfortunately.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you are normally extremely
 8well-prepared. I mean that.
 9 MR IRVING:     Not having the facilities that the huge team on the
10other side have.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us try. Yes, well, I know.
12 MR RAMPTON:     We do apologise for being huge!
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us try to see whether we can manage
14without a copy. What is the question, Mr Irving? You
15probably do not have your own copy now.
16 MR IRVING:     No. Could I have it back to ask you a question?
17I will read it out. The document is a Schnell brief which
18is an express letter from Himmler to the Minister of
19Finance, dated August 17th 1942. Your Lordship may
20remember we have had this document before, before the
21court, about four weeks ago.
22 MR RAMPTON:     I have not seen it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have to say I do not remember it.
24 MR IRVING:     And it is headed: "Costs involved in the
25evacuation of the Jews from France". Now, this letter is
26in the period when you claim that the comprehensive

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 1extermination period has begun, is it not?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The relevant sections reads, and it is in German, but I
 4will translate it: "In the framework of the general
 5solution of the Jewish problem and for the security of the
 6occupation forces in the occupied French territories, Jews
 7are continually being transported from France to the
 8Reich. At first the evacuated Jews are being housed in
 9the concentration camp, Auschwitz, but a special reception
10camp is to be built in the western Reich territory for
11them. The barracks necessary for this are already stored
12ready for shipment in the occupied French territory and
13they can be transported to the Reich immediately after
14payment of the purchase sum of 340,000 Reichsmarks. It is
15intended every month to send 13 railway trains with Jews
16into the Reich territory. By 10th August 1942", that is a
17week before the date of this letter, "18 trains from
18France have gone to the camp in Auschwitz which have
19involved the following transportation costs, 76,000
20Reichsmarks as far as the Reich frontier, 439,000
21Reichsmarks from the Reich frontier and to the camp" ----
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     So this letter -- sorry.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The costs involved in B can be dramatically reduced or
24substantially reduced in the future by erection of a
25reception camp on Reich territory".
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, this is a letter from -- sorry, from ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     From Himmler to Sherin Krosik, the Minister of Finance.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, so the Finance Ministry, so the Finance Ministry was
 3not -- the Finance Ministry, he could not write to the
 4Finance Ministry, "Actually, we are sending Jews to
 5Auschwitz and kill them there" because the Finance
 6Ministry was not officially involved in this operation.
 7So this is purely deception. The second comment I would
 8like to make, show me where is the camp? Where is this
 9besonderes Aufanlage, this reception camp, where is it?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you are saying that Sherin Krosik, a Reich Cabinet
11Minister, is having the wool pulled over his eyes by
12Heinrich Himmler?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. He was simply lying to him, he was deceiving him and
14I do not know where is this camp, this camp for the French
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did you suggest, Mr Irving -- I may have
17misunderstood you -- that these French Jews were going to
18be sent back from Auschwitz to this ----
19 MR IRVING:     We had exactly this conversation already four weeks
20ago, my Lord, and the answer is this is what the document
21says. They were going to be sent ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I must say, hearing it read out, it did not
23seem to me it was saying anything of the kind, but I may
24be wrong. I thought it was saying, "It is very expensive
25and a security risk sending French Jews right across
26Germany, therefore, we will build a camp on the Western

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 1edge of the Reich and they can go there".
 2 MR IRVING:     And the purpose of the letter is to the Minister of
 3Finance: "Please provide the funds because we can save a
 4lot of money by doing it like this".
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, your evidence is this is not really
 6worth the paper it is written on?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We know that about 79,000, I think, Jews were deported to
 8the East and we have 2,570 survivors, I think, who managed
 9to survive in work labour camps. This camp never exists,
11 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the note made by the member
12of the Judenreferat in Paris, a man called Ahnert --
13A-H-N-E-R-T -- on a conference at the Reisigerhuptsam on
14Jewish questions on September 1st 1942 at about this time?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I do not have the document in front of me so -- do
16you want me to comment on that?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now then ----
18 MR RAMPTON:     We have the translation of some of these documents
19provided some time ago, but really, with this witness in
20particular, it is essential he sees the original German
21and the whole of the original German.
22 MR IRVING:     I agree, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you talking now about the document about
24the French Jews?
25 MR RAMPTON:     No. We have the translation, as I said, done by
26Mr Irving. It looks to me to be a partial translation --

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 1I mean in the sense it is not a whole translation. With
 2this witness, it simply is not good enough.
 3 MR IRVING:     I agree, my Lord. It is not fair to put these very
 4important documents to him.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Whether they are important or not is another
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are we talking now about the document
 8relating to the French Jews and building another camp?
 9Mr Rampton, what are you talking about when you ----
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that is the one, yes, and, apparently, there
11is some other document as well but ... I do not know.
12 MR IRVING:     I can summarize it, my Lord. The Ahnet document is
13September 1st 1942. It is a conference on the deportation
14of French Jews and the need to provide them with blankets,
15equipment, spades, shovels and food and everything for a
16camp to be constructed in Russia. This is another
17indication that they are not going to be sent off to
19     Then there is a further document which I intend
20putting to the witness which is referred to again by Gotz
21Aly which is a very important letter by a man called
22Walter Furl -- are you familiar with that letter?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think, my Lord, I am going to suggest ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are not going to finish this witness, are

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