Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 212

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 1 MR IRVING:     No. I am just curious to know what his sources
 2were. Do you agree that the transports were for the
 3purpose of deportation to ghettos and not for
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We are talking now about the spring of 1942, so we are
 6still in this transitional phase, so they have not started
 7what they call in the Wannsee Conference their coming
 8Final Solution. They are still deporting people into
 9ghettos and not directly -- German Jews or Jews from
10Germany, not directly, not directly into extermination
11camps. They will start this in May 1942.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     67, paragraph 10. What did Heydrich mean by the
13resettlement of altogether half a million Jews out of
14Europe to the East? This is the second sentence from the
15end of paragraph 10.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I think this is in April.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     1942?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     April 1942. I think they are, they talked in the Wannsee
19Conference, they talked about this, the coming Final
20Solution, about this large programme to deport Jews to the
21East and to kill them there. And I think this is -- they
22are not going to shift their plans from bringing people to
23ghettos, and they now shift these plans to the next stage
24where they are actually about to send Jews directly to
25extermination camps.
26     So you can see from this document that they are

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 1in the [German] they are planning on a larger programme,
 2and I think they are just about to make the decision
 3actually that these new transports will go directly into
 4extermination camps, but I have no ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     No proof?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- no final evidence for that. This is a document which
 7was unknown so far. And we will find more and this will
 8add to our knowledge.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is quite unsatisfactory, is it not, that every time we
10want to deduce an extermination inference, we have to end
11up by saying, "Unfortunately, there is no proof, it is
12just one's own conclusion"?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not think I say that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you accept that hundreds of
15thousands of Jews were exterminated.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So why are you criticising the inference that
18Dr Longerich draws that that was what was proposed?
19 MR IRVING:     We are looking at the overall figures, my Lord, we
20have to if we are to avoid the allegation of Holocaust
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are on the figure of half a million?
23 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are tackling the figure of half a
26 MR IRVING:     Yes. That is a substantial number going to the

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 1East. We needed to know what it is ----
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, well, there is more evidence for that. I made a
 3calculation here. He said in Bratislava this would
 4comprise six countries, that is Germany, Belgium,
 5Netherlands, France and the Protectorate and Slovakia, and
 6if you look at the planning for the deportation at the
 7first phase of deportations in spring 1942, we can see,
 8you know, 55,000 people from Germany, about 70,000,
 9I think, from Slovakia, you can actually look at the
10different countries, look at the figures and you come to
11the conclusion that 500,000 is actually what they were
12going to plan at this time.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is planning? It is not what happened?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is planning. This is planning.
15 MR IRVING:     But, you see, the problem is in paragraph 11 now we
16come to the Dannecker Conference of June 11th 1942.
17Dannecker was Eichmann's man in Paris, is that right?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that is right.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are talking about shipping Jews from France to
20Auschwitz or to ----
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     The document here is quite specific. We have the actual
23German wording, have we not?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     [German - document not provided] "We agree that from the
26Netherlands 15,000, from Belgium 10,000 and from France,

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 1including the unoccupied territory, altogether 100,000
 2Jews are to be deported". The note states that "Himmler",
 3as you say, on page 68, line 3, "had given the order to
 4'provide larger quantities of Jews to the Auschwitz
 5concentration camp, to increase the workforce'"?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     The primary condition is they have got to be able-bodied,
 8between 16 and 40 years old, but the transports are also
 9allowed to include 10 per cent who are not fit for work.
10Have you any conclusion you want to draw on that?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think it shows you that they are not at this stage,
12not only using Jews as slave labour, but they also at this
13stage have started to include in the transport Jews who
14are not fit for work. So the plan is, obviously, to kill
15them on arrival in Auschwitz. So, the coming Final
16Solution actually started. People are directly deported
17to extermination camps.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that the only conclusion you draw from that, that there
19is no other possible interpretation of the 10 per cent,
20that there may have been a desire there possibly to keep
21families together or to tell them they are going to be
22kept together or something like that?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. I would not at this stage, if you look at the reality
24in transition camps and transports at camps, I would not,
25I cannot agree that they had this humanitarian

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any documents relating to the building in
 2West Germany of special camps for the French to be housed
 3in? They actually went to Auschwitz and came back from
 4Auschwitz to these special camps.
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, there is a small number of Jews who were deported
 6from France, a relatively small number, who were sent to
 7war camps in Upper Silesia. This is, you announce this a
 8couple of, I think two or three weeks ago that you wanted
 9to actually prove that the majority of the Jews who were
10deported from France were not sent to Auschwitz but were
11used in a kind of labour programme, but I have not
12received the documentation yet so I am ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen the document that was used in the trial of
14Frans Novac, Eichmann's transportation officer?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, well, again if you have those documents, if they are
16available, I would like to look at them and to comment on
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps I could just ask you to look at the two indented
19paragraphs in that letter, in that document.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, again I am asked here to comment on a text prepared
21by Mr Irving. It is not an original document.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have no idea what you are looking at. Have
23you got copies for anybody else, Mr Irving?
24 MR IRVING:     If the witness is not prepared to answer a question
25on that document, then...

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