Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 212

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is true, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which might be a legitimate interpretation, but, of
 5course, there might be other interpretations. Do you
 6accept that?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Such as?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think the text is quite clear. They are talking here
 9about killing.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What alternative explanation would you put
12 MR IRVING:     Well, I did put this to the witness, my Lord. Is
13it not possible that these ultrafit, able-bodied
14survivalist Jews had survived the whole of this appalling
15experience and emerged at the end of it, that, as Heydrich
16said, "We are going to have to deal with them separately.
17We are going to have to make sure they do not come back"?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I think the context makes it clear that Heydrich
19wants to avoid that these people are the seed of a
20regeneration of European Jewry. I think from the context
21it is quite clear he wants to kill them in order to avoid
22that. He is not talking about building up a kind of
23recreation camp or something in the East where they can,
24you know, regenerate and become the core of a Jewish
25nation or something like that. I think the context is

.   P-186

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Apart from Eichmann, have you considered the testimony of
 2any of the participants in the Wannsee Conference?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think I have seen most of them, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are they all unanimous in saying, "Yes, we all discussed
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, of course not. They were taken during the Nuremberg
 7trial, the main trial, and during the so-called [German],
 8that is the trial against the administration, and they
 9were all evasive. I mean, for instance, the Secretary of
10State, Noimann, said he was not actually there, you know.
11You have this kind of quality. They were
12self-exculpatory. This is the largest killing, murderous
13operation in modern history and this is the key document
14we have. Of course, everybody who was there, every
15Secretary of State, every Civil Servant, would, of course,
16do everything to distance themselves from these minutes.
17So they had all kinds of -----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there not evidence that Stuchart, in fact, sold at out
19Nuremberg to the Americans as a witness, and that if he
20had been there and he had known of what really happened,
21he would have been very willing to tell the Americans what
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not see where, what is the evidence for that.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, are you aware that Stuchart was, when all the rest
25around him were being sentenced to 10 years, 20 years and
26the gallows, he was released, sentenced to time served?

.   P-187

 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     What does it -- I cannot see the point.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     What does it?
 4 MR IRVING:     Well, the point I am making, my Lord, is there were
 5about 20 participants in the Wannsee Conference. Any one
 6of them would have had a severe temptation to go to the
 7Americans and say, "If you guarantee that I am going to be
 8released in the foreseeable future, I will tell you what
 9you want to hear".
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, that is your speculation. I cannot follow that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     And they all maintained a solid front and said, no, there
12was no such discussion?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, they find -- there was nothing like a solid front.
14They had all, I mean, all kind of answers to this
15question, all kinds of evasion, all kinds of different
16tactics. Most of them, most of them pretended that
17actually the only issue there was the Mischlinger question
18which formed the second part of the Wannsee Conference,
19and that they simply did not realize that Heydrich was
20talking about killing, and this was what most of the
21witnesses actually said.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What they said that the January part ----
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- of the Wannsee was all about Mischlinger?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They were referring in their answers, referring to the
26second part of the Wannsee Conference, yes.

.   P-188

 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is there any reference to Mischlinger in the protocol of
 2the January part of the Wannsee Conference?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. The Wannsee conference, the minutes has two parts.
 4First of all, it is Heydrich's speech, this general speech
 5about the fate of the Jews, and the second part is
 6about -- the Wannsee Conference is about how and who, how
 7was the first part and who was the second part?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We do need to have a translation of the
10 MR IRVING:     I have a complete translation on my website site,
11so it is very easy to provide it. (To the witness):
12Dr Longerich, the only other point on the Wannsee
13Conference is statistics, on population statistics that it
14contains. Are they accurate, in your view?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Not entirely. There are some mistakes in it, I think.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     There are some gross errors, are there not?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Which one?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     The French Jewish population is overestimated
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, what they did, they made a mistake. That have a
21figure of ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     700,000?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, and I think an additional figure for the occupied
24territory of 165 -- so this is a kind of confusion. They
25actually double counted the people in the occupied

.   P-189

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     What about Buhler's reference to 2.5 million Jews in the
 2Generalgouvernement? Was that an accurate estimate or was
 3it high?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is probably a little bit exaggerated.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say that is exaggerated, but, of course, Dr Frank in
 6his famous December 16th 1941 speech talks of 3.5 million
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, he says at 2.5 and they are [German] -- the families,
 9their relatives, or everybody, he is talking about, I
10think he is talking about the so-called mixed Mischlinger
11or mixed Jews. He gives two figures. I think one is 2.5
12and then he says, "Well, and their dependents and people
13that are related to them" and then he comes to 3.5. The
14figure 3.5 is too high.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     65. Go to page 65, please, paragraph 4 -- page 66,
16paragraph 5, please. You say: "There is conclusive proof
17of 43 transports, which as a rule carried 1,000 people
18each", but the only source you gave on this is one of your
19own books?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. There is more research about this in my book. This
21is, sorry, from where is that from?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     To Lublin, I think.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, to Lublin. In the book I have a -- it is a list of
24the trains. I list every train with arrival dates and so
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is that challenged, Mr Irving? Do you say there were not?

.   P-190

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