Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 212

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me draw your attention to the last sentence.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let him finish the answer.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We have a clear indication in the text that they are
 4expecting the beginning of the coming Final Solution in a
 5couple of months, because it is said here in the text:
 6"The timing for the start of the individual large scale
 7evacuation actions will be largely dependent on military
 8development". So they ----
 9 MR IRVING:     "And could only be fully realized after a German
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Is it in the text?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, your paragraph 3.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I am sorry but ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is the question I asked you ----
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, just a moment ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the end of paragraph 3.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are talking over each over.
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Just a moment. I am not quoting from the minutes of the
19Wannsee Conference where it clearly said that this
20deportation could start after the military developments
21would allow that. This is in a couple of -- from their
22perspective, is a couple of months. The whole operation
23could, of course, only be, could only be carried out, the
24whole operation, they talking here about the killing of 11
25million Jews, including British Jews, Turkish Jews, Swiss
26Jews, and so on. So the whole operation could, of course,

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 1only -- it is a question of logic -- only be dealt to a
 2full extent after the war because the precondition of that
 3is, of course, that they had to win the war.
 4 MR IRVING:     Precisely.
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     But the text gives us a clear indication that they are
 6bound to start this. They are just waiting. They say:
 7"As soon as the military, as soon as the military
 8situation improves, we will start that" and in the end it
 9becomes clear from the comments of Buhler and Meiyer that
10they cannot wait. They want to start preparatory measures
11on the spot and ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the answer to my question is, yes, this comprehensive
13plan was only going to be implemented after final victory?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     To a full extent, but they were quite prepared and were
15quite keen to start it as soon as possible, as soon as the
16military situation would allow it to start it.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because if you look further up that paragraph, it says
18they are going to get their hands on those, the Jews,
19outside Germany, in Great Britain, Ireland, Portugal,
20Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Turkey. Now, how are they
21going to do that, except by some kind of peace treaty?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think I have made my point quite clear.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you have, but can I just ask you this
24and see whether I am taking a bad point. The bit of
25Heydrich that you quote at the foot of your page 61, says:
26"Under the appropriate direction, the Jews shall now be

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 1put to work in the course of the Final Solution", and so
 2on. The word in the German text is "nun"?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is he contemplating there that the work gangs of those fit
 5enough to work will be got together straightaway?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     And that does not wait until the end of the war or
 8anything of that kind?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Exactly. The "now" is another confirmation that it will
10start very, very soon -- as soon as the military situation
11allows that.
12 MR IRVING:     The entry was, as you say, on paragraph 4:
13"Initially, the Jews were going to be brought to
14'transit-ghettos in order to be transported from there
15further to the East'."
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, before they could start the coming Final Solution.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But they could not do the whole job though until the war
18was over and they could sign the peace treaties with
19Britain and the rest of the countries?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I make my point quite clear, I think. I disagree
21with that and now I give you one, I give you one quotation
22and there is another quotation, the word "nun" indicates
23that it would start very, very soon -- now actually.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Part of it starts now, but the final Final Solution is
25going to be after the war?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. I do not want to repeat myself.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, my Lord, there is an important corollary, it now
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not want to repeat that. I made it very clear that
 4I quoted now again and again this quotation here ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but can I now put the ----
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- that "The timing for the start of the individual large
 7evacuations action will be largely dependent on military
 8developments". So as soon as the military situation will
 9improve, they will start it and they actually started it
10in a couple of month.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I now put the final question in this particular
12context which is this. If peace broke out and all the
13Jews of Europe started rolling eastwards into these camps,
14these transit camps, set up by the Germans, what could the
15Germans do with them in peace time? They could not run
16the gas chambers, could they? They could not have these
17huge extermination operations in peace time, could they,
18because that kind of thing people get attention of in
19peace time. You can do things in war time that you cannot
20do in peace, is that right?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     You are talking here, you are assuming here, a total
22victory of Nazi Germany in World War II, and I can imagine
23that in this case they would be able to carry out whatever
24they want to do in Europe.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are obviously assuming a total victory; they are
26going to get their hands on Britain's Jews and even the

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 1Irish ----
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, of course.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- not to mention Portugal, the Swiss, all of them?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So they are anticipating total victory, and yet when peace
 6time comes, somehow they are going to keep these gas
 7chambers and the whole paraphernalia of death clanking
 8with nobody noticing?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, they are under full, if they really had won the war,
10they were under full control. There was nobody who could
11interfere. Who could actually come and interfere and do
12anything about that?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     It rather destroys the homicidal nature of the Wannsee
14Conference, does it not, the idea that it is all going to
15be put off until peace time, the final part of the
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I made it quite clear that i do not follow this, and what
18is said here that this operation to a full extent could
19only be carried out after the war. So they would assume
20that they, if they had won the war they would starting to
21kill the British Jews, according to the minutes of the
22Wannsee Conference. I think it is quite clear here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 5, line 4, you say that in the case that they
24should survive these trials and tribulations, they would
25be murdered. That is just the spin you put on that "dealt
26with accordingly", right?

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