Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 212

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    Yes. I think this passage makes it quite clear what
 1led into the East in large labour gangs, segregated
 2according to sex. Thus Jews fit for work will be let into
 3those areas, whereby, no doubt, a large part will fall out
 4by natural elimination. So they will die by hard labour,
 5diseases and so on. The remainder who will survive, and
 6they will certainly be those who have the greatest power
 7of endurance, so they are fit to survive, will have to be
 8dealt with accordingly. Again the German phrase here is
 9"entsprechend behandelt werden mussen". This is a
10typical phrase used by the SS, they have to be
11liquidated. Then, because, if they were released, in
12contrast to Heydrich's intention, there would be a
13selection of the finest and could form the seed of a new
14Jewish regeneration. This is exactly what Heydrich of
15course wanted to prevent. He did not want to see after
16this ordeal a new generation of Jews in his empire. In
17the Wannsee protocol there are also other references,
18I think, and other passages which make it quite clear what
19the intention was.
20 MR IRVING:     At the end of that passages does he also have a
21passage in brackets which you left out, "see the lessons
22of history"?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry? Here in the text I left something out?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     "als Keimzelle eines neuen judischen Aufbaues anzusprechen
25ist". Then there is another passage in brackets which you
26left out, is it not, in that paragraph, "see the lessons

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 1of history"?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The lessons of history are we do not want to see actually
 3Jews regenerate from such a catastrophe any more, we want
 4to kill them all. By the way, the logic of this sentence,
 5this idea to lead large labour gangs into the East and to
 6have them diminished by natural selection, and then to
 7deal with the survivors, what about the people who are not
 8fit for work? He does not say that. What about the
 9children and the mothers? What is he going to offer for
10them in the context of this speech?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say that what Heydrich was saying in Prague on
12February 4th 1942, just a few days later, has no bearing
13on this, that he makes no mention of mass annihilation,
14and he is talking about the white sea option and using the
15Russian concentration camps, which are now emptied of
16course, to house the Jewish emigres. What is this, just
17window dressing?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They are speaking here about the coming Final Solution, so
19it has not started yet. It will start in May 1942.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who was Heydrich speaking to in February
211942, Dr Longerich, do you know? Do you know, Mr Irving?
22May I enquire of you?
23 MR IRVING:     I am just checking on the source, Gotz Aly.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, do not worry.
25 MR IRVING:     A secret address by Heydrich on February 4th 1942
26in Prague, page 174 of Gotz Aly, the Final Solution. That

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 1is the only reference that I have for that.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Again, one should see the whole document. Secret address
 3to whom? I would like to see the full text before I could
 4comment on that.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was not speaking to the Boy Scouts and the Brownies,
 6was he? He was obviously speaking to people who----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I have seen any transcript or
 8note of what he said on February 4th.
 9 MR IRVING:     I will obtain it, my Lord. That is all I can say.
10The whole passage.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you mind? Thank you.
12 MR IRVING:     It does seem important because of the value one
13learns from it to place on the Wannsee conference. Can
14I just ask, or re-ask, one or two questions about the
15Wannsee conference? There is no specific mention of
16killing. You have once again to interpret, you have to
17read between the lines?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Again, I tried to show you this here. If you go to
19the end of the minutes, it is, I think, quite clear. If
20you look at the remarks of the Secretary of State of the
21Generalgouvernement, I quoted this in my report, it is
22page 64, the last paragraph: "In the concluding
23discussion different possible solutions were talked
24about. Gauleiter Dr Meyer (the representative of the
25Ministry for the occupied Eastern territories) as well as
26Staatssekretar Dr Buhler, Secretary of State of the

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 1Generalgouvernement, represented the position that certain
 2preparatory measures in the course of the Final Solution
 3should be carried out in the relevant areas themselves,
 4whereby, however, the disquieting of the population must
 5be avoided."
 6     Then the Wannsee protocol makes clears that they
 7were talking about the different solutions they were
 8suggesting here. So what they are doing is they are
 9saying, well, we cannot wait until the Final Solution is
10coming, we want to start with it now. So they are trying
11to exempt the killing operations against the Polish Jews
12and the Soviet Jews from this coming Final Solution.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     These preparations that might have upset or caused unrest,
14would it be things like drawing up lists of people to be
15deported? Would that have caused unrest?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, the preparatory measures are the building of killing
17installations.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     How do you know that?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is my interpretation.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your interpretation?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     From the text and from what happened. They started to
22build a couple of weeks later Sobibor, they started to
23build Treblinka and they built gas chambers in Auschwitz.
24As I said, well, they prefer to use a camouflage
25language. We also have the statements by Eichmann in his
26trial when he said at the Wannsee conference they spoke

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 1quite openly about killing and different ways of killing.
 2I think this is here the passage he is referring to.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are saying that making the preparatory measures in the
 4relevant areas might disquiet the population. Why would
 5creating killing installations in Poland, or wherever the
 6killing is going to be done, upset the population who are
 7going to be rounded up and shipped off to them?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think the fact that they were going to establish
 9extermination camps would upset the local population.
10They would not like it.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not far more likely that the preparatory measures
12that they are talking about are things as I mentioned,
13like rounding up or listing or drawing up black lists of
14people to be deported, making all the necessary transport
15preparations, word of which would get out and what would
16happen then would be the same as happened in Rome, where
17they start off with 8,000 and only manage to get their
18hands on 1,000?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think we have to go back to the text here.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, can I take you now to paragraph 3 of that page, 61?
21I am going to suggest to you, Dr Longerich, they are
22talking about the Final Solution as is going to be
23implemented after the victory, is that right?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, definitely not. It is saying here in the -- it says
25in the -- really, it is a pity that we do not have the
26full text here ----

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