Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 212

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    The question was, in your central passage the
 1place. Can we accept that evacuation has its real meaning
 2there or is there an innuendo?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is not the central passage. He is referring here to
 4two different things. First of all, he is actually
 5telling the history of how the Nazis tried to solve the
 6Jewish question. He is saying here: "A further possible
 7solution to emigration has come up. After appropriate
 8approval by the Fuhrer the evacuation of the Jews to the
 9East has stepped into its place". "Into its place" is in
10the place of emigration. Then it goes on and says: "These
11actions however must be regarded only as an alternative
12solution. But already the practical experience is being
13gathered which is of great importance to the coming Final
14Solution of the Jewish question". Now in the next
15paragraph he is explaining what the coming Final Solution
16of the Jewish question is. So he is referring to
17emigration, then to deportation, and then he is saying the
18next step, we are entering now the Final Solution, the
19coming Final Solution, and the central passage where he
20explains (Heydrich) what the coming Final Solution is, is
21quoted in my report on page 61 in the last paragraph.
22This is the central passage, I think.
23 MR IRVING:     Yes.
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is past tense. This is history, the deportation. We
25are now approaching the coming Final Solution. That is
26what the Wannsee conference is about.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What you say is that it is what he does not
 2say rather than what he does say in relation to those who
 3are unfit to work which is significant? Have I understood
 4you correctly?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, he is now explaining what the coming Final Solution
 6is. These are these famous sentences: "Under the
 7appropriate direction, the Jews shall now be put to work
 8in the course of the Final Solution. Organized into large
 9work gangs and segregated according to sex, those Jews fit
10for work will be led into these areas as road builders,
11whereby, no doubt, a large part will fall out by natural
12elimination. The remainder who will survive -- and they
13will certainly be those who have the greatest power of
14endurance -- will have to be dealt with accordingly. For,
15if released, they would, according to the natural
16selection of the fittest, form the seed of a new Jewish
17regeneration". I think the key word in German here is
18"entsprechend behandelt werden mussen", to be dealt with
20 MR IRVING:     Treated accordingly, yes.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is the central passage of the Wannsee conference and
22this is where Heydrich explains what the coming Final
23Solution is.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of course it depends how you translate it, does it not?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The German text for me is pretty clear.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What about that phrase "bei Freilassung" which originally

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 1you actually left out in your book? You left those words
 2out entirely, did you not, because it is difficult to get
 3past those words "bei Freilassung"?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. I am not sure about the book ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sure because you left the words out of that
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am quite happy that you read my book but we are talking
 8about this text here. If there is a mistake I will
 9correct it.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You translate it as: For the Jews, if released, would,
11according to natural selection of the fittest, form the
12seed of a new Jewish regeneration.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     The word is not "if released". It is not conditional. It
15is "bei Freilassung", which means upon release, does it
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. In the case of release, bei Freilassung.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Upon release?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is not conditional at all. There is no if and but
21about it. It says "bei Freilassung".
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, "bei Freilassung". This is meant in the context as
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think this is probably the key part, in a
25way, of your report, Dr Longerich. The question, if
26I have understood it right, is that what Heydrich is

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 1really proposing is that one would, by a process of
 2natural selection, have the fittest Jews forming the seed
 3of what he is intending should be a new Jewish
 4regeneration. Is that the suggestion, Mr Irving?
 5 MR IRVING:     That is the danger which they foresee, and so they
 6are going to have to be kept, for example, physically
 7outside the Reich territories. They must be prevented
 8from returning.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but the idea that you are putting that
10Heydrich has is that there should be a new Jewish
11regeneration born of the fittest Jews who survive the
12labour camps.
13 MR IRVING:     He fears that they may be. He is not saying they
14should be. He says that if, upon release----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. Are you suggesting that the true meaning
16of this passage is that Heydrich is proposing that there
17should be -- all right, outside the Nazi empire -- the
18seed of a new Jewish regeneration? Is that what you are
20 MR IRVING:     It is, because on February 4th 1942, which is only
21a week or two later, Heydrich, speaking in Prague,
22actually spoke again of the white sea option. He said
23nothing about the mass annihilation of the Jews. Are you
24familiar with the book by Gotz Aly?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Final Solution, Nazi population policy, and the murder of

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 1the European Jews. He prints extracts from this speech by
 2Heydrich in Prague, does he not, February 4th 1942?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but Aly is of course----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     He says nothing about mass annihilation of the Jews. He
 5reiterates the white sea option, which involves sending
 6the Jews to form a Russian concentration camp and says
 7that this area will form an ideal homeland for the
 8European Jews. Are you familiar with that passage from
 9Gotz Aly?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have not mentioned it, have you?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, but Gotz Aly is among those who actually suggest in
13the book that the decision to carry out the Final Solution
14was taken in October 1941. You quote him completely
15against his own intentions.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am allowed to, am I not? Historians are allowed to take
17pieces out of other people's books that do not necessarily
18fit in with the----
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but you have also to read his interpretation of this
20sentence which does not go along with your interpretation.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dr Longerich, can you just go back to what
22I believe is the suggestion as to what Heydrich was
23proposing at Wannsee. Leave aside what happened later.
24Would you comment on Mr Irving's proposition?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I think this passage makes it quite clear what
26Heydrich's intentions are. He says that the Jews will be

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