Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 212

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    I do not want to labour the point, but what kind of top
 1something is top state secret or it is not. You do not
 2hold even background briefings with the press about it.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think you have to read the statement very carefully.
 4"There are still about 6 million Jews in the east, and
 5this question can only be solved through a biological
 6eradication of all of Jewry in Europe. The Jewish
 7question will only be solved for Germany when the last Jew
 8has left German territory and for Europe when there is no
 9longer a Jew left standing on the European Continent". He
10is not literally saying well, actually, we are killing at
11the moment people, women, men and children in gas
12chambers. He is talking about this in very general
13phrases. It is like Hitler spoke about ausrottung and
14vernichtung and I quote in the report No. 1. I quote a
15number of other examples. In every system where you have
16a principle of secrecy, of course, things are going wrong
17and people are talking too much to the press, and giving a
18kind of insight into the process. These things happen.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you agree that, when Rosenberg specifically names the
20option as being to push them over the Urals as one way of
21eradicating them, then such expulsion over the Urals does
22not necessarily mean to kill them?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not sure now about your question, whether it is
24actually a pronouncement to kill them or not to kill
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that the Rosenberg reference to

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 1eradication therefore does not necessarily mean physical
 2extermination or killing?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I look at the German text. I am sorry. Well, he says in
 4the German: "Und dazu ist es notig, sie uber den Ural zu
 5drangen oder sonst irgendwie zur Ausmerzung zu bringen."
 6For this it is necessary to push them over the Urals or
 7otherwise eradicate them. I think this is quite clear:
 8Otherwise eradicate them. So I think the phrase to push
 9them over the Urals is a clear expression, a metaphor for
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, I am looking at my little dictionary from
12yesterday, the 1935 one, and it says for Ausmerzung -- I
13did not know this but here we are, we take a plunge -- to
14expunge or to eliminate, to expunge them.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     To eliminate, I think, would be the right expression here.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Primary one to expunge?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In this case I think, if somebody speaks about millions of
18people, Jews, who actually ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are going to boot them out or expunge them?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but you have to look at the context. I think, if you
21speak end of 1941, after half a million of Soviet Jews had
22been killed, at least, if a leading Nazi speaks about
23Ausmerzung, I think the second meaning would here be the
24better translation.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are extrapolating backwards from your knowledge of
26what happened to assign a meaning to the word which is

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 1different from the primary meaning given by the
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     What happened at the time, and Rosenberg was of course
 4quite aware about the----
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Extrapolating backwards is unfair. Putting two
 6contemporary events side by side and drawing an inference
 7would be more like it.
 8 MR IRVING:     This press conference was in November 1941,
 9I believe, is that right?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton has rightly said that events happened side by
12side. At this time, 18th November, had the physical
13extermination of the Jews of Germany begun?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, but of the Soviet Jews. I think the phrase to push
15them over the Urals is a very clear hint.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     We now come to the Wannsee conference. A general
17question: Are you able to identify any documentary
18evidence that proves that by the time of the Wannsee
19conference, which is January 20th 1942, the general plan
20for deportation had changed into one for mass murder?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think the Wannsee conference gives us a clear insight
22that they are about to change their plan. I think we have
23to go into the detail to make this point more clear.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     They had not yet changed but they are about to?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     They are about to change, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     In your opinion?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     So at the time that these gentlemen meet around their
 3table in Berlin Wannsee, the change has not taken place,
 4but sometime sooner or later after that the change will
 5take place?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sooner, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is page 61 now, please, paragraph 2. The passage that you
 8identify as central concerning the general aims of the
 9future Jewish policy is as follows, Dr Longerich: "A
10further possible solution instead of emigration has come
11up. After appropriate approval by the Fuhrer, the
12evacuation of the Jews to the East has stepped into its
13place". Let us have a look at that. By "evacuation of
14the Jews", do you mean evacuation or killing?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think we have to look at the text of the Wannsee.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am trying to find it. For some reason it
17is not in N1.
18 MR RAMPTON:     We do not have it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought I had looked at it.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is nobody's fault. I have asked. There is a
21version printed in Nokes &Pridham, but I have not even
22got that.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we had looked at it at some stage.
24 MR RAMPTON:     It is an extraordinary state of affairs, but
25nobody on either side of the court seems to have a text of
26the Wannsee conference.

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 1 MR IRVING:     I do not mind very much because it is not a very
 2important document.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I am not concerned with whether Mr Irving minds
 4about that or anything else, to be quite honest. I am
 5concerned that it is not there when your Lordship wants to
 6see it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it obtainable?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It is printed in a well-known three volume history
 9of Nazi Germany by two people from Exeter University
10called Nokes &Pridham. It is referenced under that
11heading in a number of the reports, particularly Evans,
12but it is not in the documents.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I can provide immediately an English
14translation on Monday.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it probably is a good idea to have
17 MR RAMPTON:     I agree.
18 MR IRVING:     It is on my website.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a document that one is going to have to
20look at quite carefully.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have the English text here in this documentation.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I have it here.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us try and deal with the questions now.
25 MR IRVING:     The question was, in your central passage the
26evacuation of the Jews to the East has stepped into its

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