Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition
Pages 151 - 155 of 212
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1 Q. [Mr Irving] And that if there had been these verbal discussions
2between Himmler and Hitler that you refer to, this is the
3kind of place you would have expected to find reference to
4it between ----
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not necessarily.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] But if there had been general knowledge, and one can
7assume that Gauleiter Greisler who has carried out this
8special treatment of 100,000 Jews must have been wondering
9at the back of his mind, "Is it OK what I am doing?" that
10Himmler passed on to him the word, "Well, I have cleared
11it with the boss"?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, Greisler obviously no difficulties to carry out this
13task. He did not ask for this kind of approval and you
14know that there were very rules about secrecy, and it was
15not every -- it was not always necessary to mention the
16name of Hitler in this or to call upon the authority of
17Hitler in this ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Well, you say so, Dr Longerich, but, of course, Gauleiter
19Greisler, as a Gauleiter, formally came under Hitler, did
20he not, so where was Hitler in this equation? Here is
21Greiser dealing direct with Himmler, saying, "I have done
22what you and Heydrich have authorized", and there is no
23mention of Hitler in the document?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] No. There is no mentioning because Greiser was quite
25prepared to carry out this, to carry out this task and he
26assumed that Himmler had the authority to ask him to do
2 Q. [Mr Irving] Do you agree that Hitler did not order this operation
3then, that the operation was ordered by Himmler and
4Heydrich, as the document says?
5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I have no written evidence that Hitler ordered this
6particular operation to kill these, to kill 100,000 in the
8 Q. [Mr Irving] If somebody says precisely the words you have just used,
9would that make them a Holocaust denier?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Not this one sentence, no, of course not.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] The next page, please, paragraph 2.3, are you able to
12identify any document in support of your assertion that
13two districts were to take the lead in the implementation
14of the Final Solution?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Well, this is mainly, if you look at the, if you look at
16the history of the two extermination camps, at the two
17extermination camps, Belzec, if you look at the history of
18the extermination camp, Belzec, and if you look then, if
19you go a little bit further, if you do not stop here, and
20if you go a little bit further and look into spring 1942
21and look at the deportation, what happened, then it is
22quite clear that Belzec was particularly built for the
23killing of the Jews who are labelled non-fit for work in
24the district of Belzec and to a certain extent in the
25district of Galicia.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] So once again you are extrapolating backwards from what
1happened to presume an order ----
2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, but that is something that if you do not have a
3complete, if you do not have a complete documentation,
4this is what historians sometimes have to do. They have
5to draw conclusion what, you know, actually from the
6following sequence or they have to go back a little bit.
7 Q. [Mr Irving] That is what I have been saying for some weeks, in fact,
8and obviously we share the same kind of methods ----
9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] I am not sure about that.
10 Q. [Mr Irving] --- we do not always come up with the same conclusions.
11Paragraph 2.4, the only sources that you quote for your
12assertions about the events in East Galicia are the
13testimony rendered in the 1968 trial and a secondary work
14Ostgalizien by Pohl?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] This is a dissertation published three years ago by a
16colleague I know very much and I know very closely and,
17I mean, I follow ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Just like Gerlach, the same kind of thing?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] And this is a first case study about the killing of the
20Jews of Eastern Galicia. There is a second book written
21at the same time which came to the same conclusion written
22by Zan Kuhlack, and I think I do not have to go to the
23local archives in Galicia to prove that the Nazis killed
24the Jews of Galicia. It is quite evident. These books
25have been reviewed. These people have to confront
26colleagues' criticism and conferences. I attended those
1conferences and I am of no doubt about their academic
2qualifications, and I do not have to present, I think,
3always first-hand evidence or documentary evidence for
4something which is commonly acknowledged among historians
5and is not disputed.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you dispute this, Mr Irving? Do you say
7that this all made up by somebody?
8 MR IRVING: Well, the question I was going to ask is precisely
9what he just answered. Is he able to identify any
10documentary evidence in support of his allegations or is
11it all second-hand?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but would you answer my question? Are
13you disputing that these indiscriminate killings in
14Galicia took place?
15 MR IRVING: Not in so many words.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, then let us move on.
17 MR IRVING: The purpose of asking these questions, of course,
18is to establish, my Lord, the sometimes rather threadbare
19evidence that this report is based on.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But there is no point in saying evidence for
21a proposition is threadbare if you accept the proposition.
22 MR IRVING: Well, I am accustomed to working with original
23documents rather than with secondary and tertiary sources.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It would not make any difference if you had
25the original documents because you accept what they show.
26 MR IRVING: 2.6, Dr Longerich, once again are you able to
1identify any document that records what Himmler and
2Globocnik discussed at their meeting on October 13th,
3other than, presumably, the Dienstkalender?
4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, it is in the Dienst calendar, you have it in front of
6 Q. [Mr Irving] They were just talking about the einfluss der Juden,
7I suppose, or something like that?
8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Yes, and then there is the BBC file of Globocnik and there
9is a very interesting exchange of letters, and you can
10come to this conclusion if you read through that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] And on the basis of those two sources, you then say: "It
12is presumably at this meeting that Globocnik received the
13assignment to build the Belzec extermination camp"?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich] Just one second, well, we know that they met and we know
15that Globocnik from the internal correspondence of his
16office in Lublin, we know that he was looking for more
17radical solutions for the Jewish question. Then he met
18Himmler and after that they started to build the
19extermination camp of Auschwitz.
20 This is a typical, I mean, in this field we have
21to rely, what we are trying to do, we are trying to
22reconstruct the history of the decision-making process.
23This means that because the evidence is sometimes or is
24sometimes fragmented, we have to put together pieces and
25have to draw conclusions from that.
26 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
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