Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 212

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 1 MR IRVING:     My Lord ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So, I mean, van Pelt appears to be at one
 3with Dr Longerich, I think it is fair to say?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Absolutely, but there is no inconsistency between
 5an experimental gassing in early September and deaths from
 6something else in October. None at all.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think this is right, Mr Irving, actually,
 8is it not?
 9 MR IRVING:     I refer only to the fact that the evidence for the
10gassings is our familiar source, eyewitnesses, and the
11following sentence in the book which I quoted is -- I will
12read both sentences together -- "This contributed to the
13high mortality rate. In the month of October 1,255
14Soviets had died. None of this was welcome news to SS
15headquarters in Berlin where the prisoners, the Russian
16prisoners, were considered an asset." What are you
17gassing 600 assets for?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you have Professor van Pelt's book in
20 MR IRVING:     I do not have it in court, no, my Lord.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Which page is this in van Pelt's report?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     105, I think it was.
23 MR RAMPTON:     104 and 105 of Professor van Pelt's report.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think let us press on.
25 MR IRVING:     I will just press on and ask one relevant
26question. (To the witness): Dr Longerich, the source you

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 1relied on for the 600 prisoners being gassed and for the
 2further 900 in December are the sources you have given in
 3235, is that right?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     All secondary sources? There is nothing of a primary, no
 6documentary source for that, is there?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think the statement of Brach is probably an eyewitness,
 8partially an eyewitness statement.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 50, you say there were six gas vans. You say in
10paragraph 8, probably a total of six gas vans. Do you
11disagree with those who say the total was three, only
12three were ever built?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I am quite familiar with the Einsatzgruppen.
14I studied their material and I went through all evidence
15about the Einsatzgruppen, and my calculation is a minimum
16of six. There is probably, there is probably some
17material here mentioned or used by me which has probably
18not been available to others.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     They did drive around a lot, did they not, from one
20killing area to another?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. It is referring here to reports by the
22Einsatzgruppen. They say, "We have one or we have two
23vans at our disposal at a certain time" and you can easily
24come to the conclusion they had a minimum of six vans
25available. I did this for all of the four Einsatzgruppen
26and it is a minimum. They could have -- it could have

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 1been more but this is as far as I came.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 51, please, paragraph 11, we are looking at a visit
 3by Adolf Eichmann allegedly to Auschwitz where he had a
 4conversation with Rudolf Hoess, the Kommandant?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Where are we? In 55 in?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you comment, they disagree firmly on what the date of
 7that visit was.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     And, in fact, Eichmann in his own copy of Hoess's memoirs
10dismissed it as fantasy, that there never had been any
11such meeting. Are you familiar with that?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, he also dismissed it -- he was very critical about
13Hoess in his interrogations in Israel. So we are at the
14moment at page?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     51?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     51, sorry.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you really have to decide which of these two criminals
18you believe, have you not?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I do not think we have to. You know, the history of
20the Holocaust is not or the decision-making or systematic
21character is not based on either the evidence of, you
22know, Hoess or Eichmann.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 12, you are talking about the construction of a
24monster crematorium with 32 chambers, furnished chambers.
25Can you confirm that your source for that is just an
26article by Gerlach in Holocaust and Genocide Studies?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, it is an excellent piece of work. He spent about
 2eight years to study the Holocaust in White Russia.
 3I know him personally, discussed it with him. I think he
 4put, he actually supported his article with a lot of
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any document, any one document, that proves there
 7was a plan to construct an extermination facility there?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. This is a conclusion because they built this large
 9crematorium with 32, 32 chamber furnished, and I think the
10magnitude of this installation gives you a clear
11indication that they were planning something very sinister
12in Mogilev.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it possible there is another non-sinister
14interpretation like it was going to become a central
15corpse disposal facility for the whole of the Russian
16Front or the whole of the area or partisan war or
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, in this article Gerlach dealt with the suggestion.
19I did not, I cannot remember the calculation, but the
20calculation, you know, the corpses they wanted to burn
21there is extraordinary. It exceeds, as far as I am aware,
22of the number of ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it ever built?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, it was a plan.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     A plan. Paragraph 13, I am a bit confused about what you
26are actually saying in this paragraph. Do you confirm

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 1that all the various preparations for mass killings you
 2have described were designed for limited regional killing
 3actions only?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, can I comment on this? I think you have to put this
 5in a context. What I am trying to say here is that in
 6phase, autumn '41 to spring 1942, we have -- the killing
 7is extended from the Soviet Union to other regions,
 8particularly to the Warthegau, to the district of Lublin,
 9to -- it also extended to Serbia and you have in this
10period the large mass killings in Riga and in Minsk.
11     You can, if you look at the transfers of the gas
12technology, the gas killing technology, to the East, you
13can see that exactly in these areas of the cities they are
14either building gas killing facilities or they are
15planning to build them.
16     Lodz, for Lodz you have Chelmo, the first wave,
1720,000 Jews deported to Lodz. They are building Chelmno,
18first of all, for there to kill the local Polish Jews.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     The killing of what?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Building a, well, Chelmno, the ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- a station for gas vans. Yes? Then we have evidence
23that in October 1941 they started to build Belzec, the
24extermination camp, in the district of Lublin. At the
25same time they were planning to send German Jews to
26Lublin. They were planning this to kill the local Jews.

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