Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 212

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 1 MR IRVING:     No, except that on each occasion I wanted to ask if
 2each of the individual elements constituted a Holocaust
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think you have got what you want.
 5 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 9 on page 44, just to make absolutely
 6certain, "The deportation of the Jews from the German
 7Reich in the autumn of 1941 and the ensuing winter
 8proceeded on the orders of Hitler". Will you just confirm
 9that those orders were only orders for deportation and not
10for extermination, not even in a camouflage sense.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has said that already. We are still in
12section A here.
13 MR IRVING:     In that case we will zip forwards to page 48.
14Paragraph 2, just as a matter of interest, Tiergarten
15Strasse, after which the action T4 was named, was not part
16of Hitler's headquarters, was it?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The building belonged to Hitler's Chancellery of the
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did the Chancellery of the Fuhrer, despite its name, have
20any close contact with Hitler? Where was it situated?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This Chancellery of the Fuhrer was situated in Berlin. It
22was first of all during the 30s mainly responsible for
23dealing with petitions and things like that, which were
24addressed to Hitler. But it became in the course of 1939,
251940, a clandestine, let us call it, operational centre
26for the killing actions, the euthenasia programme.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this because the doctors who carried it out formally
 2had to have petitions for clemency for carrying out
 3criminal acts? Was that the connection?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The doctors who were required to carry out these killings
 6of the mentally sick and so on, they had to have clemency
 7in advance for car committing a criminal act?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. They had this famous letter Hitler signed.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     He actually signed an order for the mass killing, did he
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, he did.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But this was the only connection between Hitler and the
13Chancellery of the Fuhrer, the fact that it had his name
14on its letter head, but it was geographically situated
15somewhere else. It was in Berlin and Tiergarten Strasse.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If you take a street plan of Berlin in 1939, you will see
17that the buildings of government were widely spread
18throughout the district of Tiergarten and the district of
19Wilmerstov in Berlin, so the idea that all was situated in
20one complex would be wrong.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It would be wrong, would it, in your opinion, to draw any
22false conclusion from the fact that this agency was called
23the Chancellery of the Fuhrer?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     To draw ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it be dangerous to draw a wrong conclusion from the
26fact that the Chancellery is called the Chancellery of the

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 1Fuhrer? Would it be wrong to conclude that therefore it
 2was Hitler's own personal instrument?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It was definitely Hitler's, it was one of the five
 4Chancelleries which actually reported directly to Hitler.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought it was common ground that Hitler
 6had initiated the euthanasia programme.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes. I am looking at just how closely connected
 8because the euthanasia programme, the operatives in the
 9programme, as your Lordship is probably familiar, later on
10became involved in selling their expertise, if I can put
11like that, in the gas vans.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am sorry, I thought you were talking
13about the euthenasia programme in your last question.
14 MR IRVING:     I am trying to break the link between Hitler and
15the Fuhrer's Chancellery, if I can put it like that.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Hitler had five Chancelleries. This is one of them. They
17were directly reporting to Hitler. There was a strong
18direct relationship between -- Hitler had his own
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen the files of the Chancellery of the Fuhrer?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have seen some of the files, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are they bulging with correspondence between Adolf and
23Philip Buhle or Viktor Brach?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I tried to explain this earlier. This was originally an
25office which dealt with petitions sent to the Fuhrer and
26things like that. Then it became, in the course of the

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 1euthanasia programme, a clandestine operation centre to
 2carry out the final solution in a way of this question,
 3the euthanasia question.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you now answer my question?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The character of the Chancellery in, let us say, 38 and in
 61940, if you compare these two years, is completely
 7different. It became a killing centre, and the fact that
 8it was in Tiergarten Strasse 4, it was of course a
 9clandestine operation.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you now answer my question? From your knowledge of
11the files of this Chancellery, are they bulging with
12correspondence between Adolf Hitler and the head of
13Fuhrer's Chancellery, namely Philip Buhle?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We do not have the complete files, particularly all the
15files about the euthanasia programme, except some
16splinters, are lost. The files do not give us a clear
17view about the whole operation, about the Chancellery. It
18is basically boring stuff about people who are writing
19petitions to Hitler. The Chancellery dealt with the
20petition obviously on behalf of Hitler.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, let me go straight to the bottom line -- otherwise
22I am sure his Lordship will ask me to do so -- and say
23that, when the T4 action then moved over into running the
24gas vans, is there any evidence whatsoever of a link
25between Hitler and the Chancellery in this connection?
26Any documentary evidence that Hitler got personally

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 1involved with the gas van programme?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think there is no such evidence, but the very fact that
 3Hitler stopped the euthanasia programme in 1941 and that
 4more than 100 people employed in the euthanasia programme
 5then went to the district of Lublin and actually were used
 6as the key personnel for the killing of the 1.5 million
 7Jews, probably more, of the generalgouvernement, this
 8gives us a clear idea of the involvement of Hitler. The
 9Party Chancellery did only report to Hitler, so I am
10asking you who actually gave the order to the Party
11Chancellery to move this man from the euthanasia
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, you are saying Party Chancellery, you do not
14mean that?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I mean the Chancellery of the Fuhrer. So actually who
16gave the order to this man to actually take on this new
17task in Poland?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is of course pure supposition on your part, is it
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Based on the fact that this was Hitler's Chancellery, the
21office which worked for Hitler.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Philip Buhle, who was the head of the Chancellery, what
23was his rank? Was he Reichsleiter?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is one rung down from Reichsminister?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Reichsleiter is the highest rank in the party.

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