Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 212

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Is that correct?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The question is that the dispute is about whether it is
 3possible to establish a certain day when Hitler made the
 4decision, is it possible and, if it is possible, when was
 5this specific decision.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is the timing?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, the timing. Nobody in our profession would dispute,
 8come to this absurdity to dispute actually that the
 9Holocaust happened.
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it may help your Lordship if I say that
11during the course of the afternoon I will occasionally ask
12that question, does this dispute constitute a Holocaust
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is a perfectly proper question.
15 MR IRVING:     If you think it is not proper, then of course
16I would not do so. It is a piecemeal approach but it may
17be helpful. Paragraph 1 at the bottom of page 40 -- well,
18it is not any particular paragraph. What I am asking is
19this. Do you agree that all the German government actions
20that you describe in this following section, the beginning
21of the deportations, that is section A, all the actions
22and statements of Himmler and Heydrich and Eichmann, were
23pursuant to a programme of deportation and not a programme
24of extermination? That is the first question. I am only
25referring to section A, the beginning of the deportation.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Up to page 48.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Everything in that section was pursuant to a
 2programme of deportation and not extermination?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     (After a pause) I have to look through the section.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want an ill considered reply. Just take your
 5time. It is not a trick question.
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. I think as a summary of this paragraph of this
 7section on page 46, paragraph 16 where I said, the state
 8of contemporary research does not give sufficient evidence
 9for the conclusion that at this time the deportation was
10already a matter for the planned murder and extermination
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think this is my view.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     To put it another way, you agree that all the evidence you
15introduce in that section A does not prove a programme of
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think I have answered this question.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The answer is yes?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is yes?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The answer is yes.
22 MR IRVING:     Thank you. Paragraph 2, we are now looking at a
23man called Uebelhoer, who is the head of the
24administration of the district of Lodz. Are you aware
25that, in addition to Uebelhoer, there were other local
26German authorities like Lohse who also protested about the

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 1plan to dump central European Jews in their districts, in
 2their areas?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not sure that Lohse protested. Kuger, for instance,
 4had some views about that. I think the best is you give
 5me the reference of the document and I comment on the
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, it is a bit difficult if we have to keep on looking
 8at documents.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure what the relevance of the
10question is at the moment.
11 MR IRVING:     The relevance of the question is this. If you are
12in charge of a district like Uebelhoer and you are in
13charge of the administration there, and you are protesting
14about having European Jews dumped in your back garden,
15this clearly presupposes that they are not going to be
16exterminated, does it not, because, if they are going to
17be exterminated, then you do not have the problem of
18housing and feeding them?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is the beginning of the discussions then which went
20on in the Warthegau, what shall we do with these people?
21It becomes then clear, if you read further the next
22section, that at this stage they made a kind of agreement,
23which meant that they would kill the local Jews in order
24to make room for the Jews who were coming in from Europe.
25I am referring in this paragraph to deportations and I am
26not saying here that at this stage it is clear from the

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 1documentation that deportation meant the killing of those
 2who were deported on the spot. But, if you look into the
 3next paragraph, it becomes clear what I mean here is that
 4they took the decision to kill the local Jews in order to
 5make room for the incoming German Jews.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am tackling this problem systematically and logically.
 7If Uebelhoer, and as we know from other documents Lohse
 8but take just the case of Uebelhoer, if he is protesting
 9at having European Jews dumped in his district, it is
10because he assumes that they are going to be kept alive,
11and have to be fed and housed there. He is not assuming
12they are going to be exterminated, is he, the European
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     He is just faced with a task to take in his ghetto 60,000
15at this stage sent to Germany. This is the task he was
16facing, and he is complaining about that. Obviously at
17this stage he is not given the order to kill these people
18on the spot. This is my argument. It is a transitional
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     As you said in this section A, there is no evidence of
21extermination, it is all just deportation measures being
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This deals with deportation. I speak only about the Jews
24from central Europe.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 6 on page 42, this is at a meeting in Prague on
26October 10th 1941, at which Eichmann was also present. Do

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 1you agree that, when Heydrich suggested that Nebe and
 2Rasch could take Jews into the camps of communist
 3prisoners, this was not a veiled suggestion they could be
 4exterminated in those camps?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think he is referring to the next stage of deportations
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So it was not a prerequisite to the extermination of those
 8prisoners coming in?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am not sure about this because he was just talking about
10the ghetto in Lodz. I think this remark about Nebe and
11Rasch is probably the next stage, what will happen in next
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but it is not camouflage for the extermination of the
14people coming into those camps?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     The problem is that we have not identified these camps.
16We do not know actually which camps he is speaking at this
17moment. Probably he is talking about a plan for a new
18camp which did not exist at this time. I have no idea how
19to relate this, how to interpret this one sentence.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, it seems to me that you have
21really got the answer from Dr Longerich which you want for
22your purposes. He said this is all talking of the
23deportation of the European Jews, and it did not go beyond
24that at this stage, according to him. Different things
25were affecting the Russian Jews at this time, but do you
26need to trawl through it?

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