Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 212

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    Well, the document says that the Jews are sending, are
 1be sent further to the East. So that ----
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you go to page 42 of your report: "On 6th October
 3Hitler emphasised that all Jews from the Protectorate
 4needed to be 'removed' - and not into the
 5Generalgouvernement first, but - 'straight on to the
 6East'. That is also part of the same kind of picture, is
 7it not, the East?
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, I think that you and I are agreed that sometimes the
10Germans used the phrase "the East" in a sinister sense, is
11that right? They say "the East" and, in fact, they mean
12to perdition, to their ----
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but here I think, I am in a way very cautious in
14interpreting the language here, and I say I think it is
15meant here that they are simply sent to the East, to
16ghettos and to camps to the East. So the East is here,
17obviously, the Generalgouvernement.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are going to be looking this afternoon at some
19documents about people who were sent to Auschwitz ready
20for being sent on to the East or, at any rate, and
21obviously I am going to be asking your interpretation of
22those documents ----
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well...
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- which is quite an important point.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We are here in a phase where actually in three waves
26German Jews are sent to ghettos in occupied Poland and the

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 1occupied Soviet Union. The first wave goes to Losch, the
 2second wave to Riga and Minsk and the third wave in the
 3there spring of 1942 goes to ghettos in the district of
 4Lublin. What has happened to the people is they are not,
 5in general, killed on the spot. So they survive for a
 6couple of weeks, probably a couple of months, until spring
 71942 and then they killed them on a systematic basis by
 8sending them to extermination camps or by gassing them.
 9     So we are in a kind of transitional phase here
10we they are still not prepared to kill then on the spot,
11except the six trains we discussed yesterday.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But can I just ask you this? It is not just
13German Jews that are being talked of in 6th October
14document, is it? It is all European Jews.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, Germany is here in the sense of a greater Germany,
16so this includes the annexed territories, Austria, the
17Czech Jews as well which is a project of ----
18 MR IRVING:     Just in a vague sense, a general question, did the
19Nazis in some way regard the European Jews as being more
20valuable material than the Russian Jews, Eastern Jews?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know what you mean with "valuable material".
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, preserved -- there is a point in preserving them
23whereas they did not care what happened to the Eastern
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Generally speaking, they made a kind of distinction
26between the Eastern Jews and the Western Jews.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was never actually spelt out in a document, but this is
 2the inference we can draw, is it not, from the document?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, it is spelt out in documents but they made, in
 4general, in their anti-Semitic -- in the anti-Semitic way
 5they looked at this since they make this different
 6sometimes, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to ask one more brief question before the
 8adjournment, my Lord. Page 45, paragraph 15. You say:
 9"Rademacher still assumed at the end of October 1941 that
10the Serbian Jews would be 'removed by water transport into
11the transition camps'", the "Auffanglager im Osten", "in
12the East". So there was this kind of perception among the
13top level Nazis involved in the programme, in the system,
14that there were reception camps in the East to which these
15European Jews were going to be shipped.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I only say that Rademacher in this letter obviously
17assumed that they would be removed by ship in the
18transition camps in the East. I am not, I cannot, I do
19not want to comment on general perception of this, but
20I think Rademacher was probably convinced that this would
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, over the page, paragraph 16, you raise the matter
23which I have just raised a couple of minutes ago: "Was
24the deportation of Jews 'to the East' at this time already
25a metaphor for the planned murder in the extermination
26camps?" You say, quite frankly: "The state of

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 1contemporary research does not give sufficient evidence".
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what he said. It is a transitional
 3phase. I think that is his evidence.
 4 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     2 o'clock.
 6 (Luncheon adjournment)
 7(2.00 p.m.)
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 9 MR IRVING:     Thank you, my Lord. My Lord, I can say the
10Defendants' solicitors have very diligently got on to the
11Wolff document and there is one minor snag over the date,
12but I am sure we will have it at the end of the weekend.
13I cannot do better than that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say they got on to it, is it
15physically in court?
16 MR RAMPTON:     Munich cannot find any Wolff testimony for the
17date, which is 11th May 1952.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am glad we have----
19 MR IRVING:     They are responding positively.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     -- tried to find out what the position
21actually is.
22 MR IRVING:     I just hope I did not leave anything important out,
23of course, but I am sure I did not.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we all remember that I would like to know
25what the outcome of it all is.
26 MR IRVING:     I think it is an important document and, as your

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 1Lordship knows, I relied on it quite heavily at the time.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     From your point of view, it is an important
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I do not understand why it is, if I may say so at
 5this stage, so terribly important in Mr Irving's mind if
 6the testimony of von dem Bach-Zelewski must be dismissed
 7out of hand because it is postwar.
 8 MR IRVING:     You have pre-empted me.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is another point about it which I think
10we ought all to bear in mind, which is that it was not
11actually available to you, Mr Irving, as I understand it,
12when you wrote your book because I think you said it had
13been supplied by a lawyer in Dusseldorf.
14 MR IRVING:     It very definitely was, my Lord.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was? I see.
16 MR IRVING:     Oh yes. That is part of my original research.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But it was not in your discovery, was it?
18 MR IRVING:     It was in a big box called documents on the
19Judenfrager which they had copied in its entirety.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought you told me this morning it was not
21in your discovery.
22 MR RAMPTON:     The note was, but not the document.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will revert to that on Monday.
24 MR IRVING:     This is one reason of course why I mentioned
25Bach-Zelewski because, if my use of Karl Wolff is impugned
26as a source, who did not have the death of millions or

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