Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 212

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    Well, we went through this when I think I made it quite
 1it was sent. Munich and Berlin, I made this quite clear
 2that the Munich office had a liaison office in Berlin, so
 3I do not think this is a ----
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hitler was in East Prussia, was he not?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but, of course, then Bormann was constantly in his --
 6it was Bormann policy to be constantly in close with
 7Hitler so in order to inform him about everything which he
 8thought he has to be informed of.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you go to page 40, please, the third paragraph? This
10is a general statement which is quite useful. In the fall
11of 1941, the autumn of 1941, you say: "The Nazi regime
12began to deport Jews from Central Europe into the Eastern
13European ghettos. From statements by leading
14representatives of the regime it becomes clear that at
15this point in time the intention was to deport these
16people further to the East following upon a victory over
17the Soviet Union".
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that still your position now?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you found it, my Lord?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you.
23 MR IRVING:     That is a very useful summary of the position in
24the autumn of 1941. You are talking about September,
25October 1941?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And at that time the Nazi leadership, Hitler, Himmler,
 2everybody else was talking, was ----
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, to deport these people further to the East, and what
 4would happen to the people then further in the East? I do
 5not have -- my argument here is that this intention to
 6send them further to the East had clearly genocidal
 7implication. They would perish there in the East, but
 8they postponed this because originally they thought they
 9had this area under control in the autumn of 1941. Now
10they realised they had not won the war, so they sent these
11people first to ghettos in the East and with the intention
12to send them further to the east, let them perish until
13next spring.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quote the Greiser letter, do you not, on the following
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     For instance, the Greiser letter, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can I just offer a different translation of that
18first paragraph?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, where is that, please?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The different translation that I offer is in the little
21bundle, page 13.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The Fuhrer wishes that from the West to the East" -- do
24you want to follow the German one?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just a minute. I have not found this.
26 MR IRVING:     This is September 18th 1941.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That I think is not -- yes, it is, 84.
 2 MR IRVING:     "The Fuhrer wishes that from the" -- I would like
 3this one actually put in the bundle actually. It is a
 4better translation.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is in there. I think it is 84 or
 6am I wrong?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     84.
 8 MR IRVING:     Mine is, I think, a slightly preferable translation
 9of a rather complicated sentence. "The Fuhrer wishes that
10from the West to the East, the Altreich" the old Reich,
11"and the Protectorate be emptied and freed of Jews as
12soon as possible. Initially, therefore, and during the
13course of this year, if possible, I am striving as a first
14stage to transport the Jews out of the Altreich and the
15Protectorate into the Eastern territories newly
16accessioned by the Reich two years ago, and then to deport
17them even further to the East early next year. I intend
18to convey about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and
19Protectorate into the Litzmannstadt ghetto for the winter
20which has, so I hear, the space to accommodate them".
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I think there are two mistakes in your translation.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     First of all, you translated, it said in the text here,
24"nachsten Fruhjahr", next spring, you said "early next
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Fruhjahr" is not necessarily spring. "Fruhling" is

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 1spring, is it not? "Fruhjahr" is ----
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No. "Fruhjahr" and "Fruhling" is the same. It has the
 3same meaning. "Early next year" is quite misleading, but
 4"early next year" could be read as January, for
 6     The second mistake you make, if you look at the
 7last sentence here, or not the last sentence, the sentence
 8before the last sentence, it says in the German text:"Ich
 9beabsichtige, in das Litzmannstadter Getto, das, wie ich
10hore, an Raum aufnahmefahig ist, rund 60,000 Juden des
11Altreichs und des Prtektorats fur den Winter zu
13     So you say here in your translation, "I intend
14to convey about 60,000 Jews of the Altreich and
15Protectorate in the to Litzmannstadter ghetto for the
16winter which has, so I hear, the space to accommodate
17them". So in the German text it is only -- the German
18text only says which is as I translated it here in my
19translation which has at best -- so it does not say in the
20text, in the German text -- in the German text it only
21says it is "aufnahmefahig". It does not say that it is
22specifically "aufnahmefahig had space for them". It only
23says "aufnahmefahig".
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, if it says "an Raum aufnahmefahig", surely, the
25inference is that it has adequate space for this task?
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but it also could receive more people.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Now, what is the purpose of that letter from Himmler
 2to Greisler? Is it camouflage or can we believe what he
 3is writing?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think one can basically believe what he is writing.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So at this time, September 18th, there is no homicidal
 6intent towards the European Jews?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I said this, I think I made this quite clear in my
 8statement: "From statements by leading representatives of
 9the regime it is clear at this point in time the intention
10was to deport these people further to the East following
11up a victory over the Soviet Union". So I draw the
12conclusion from the sentence it was the intention to send
13them further to the East.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but there is no camouflage intended in the document.
15There are none of these camouflage words we have heard so
16much about in that paragraph. What Himmler wrote to
17Greiser there is meant, the German Jews, the European
18Jews, are going to be shipped out to the East. No one is
19paying much attention to what is going to happen when they
20get there. No one cares really what happens to them in
21their new existence?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So any decision must have come after that in September
241941. It is an important document, is it not?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, the document says that the Jews are sending, are
26sent to the ghetto and then in the next spring they will

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