Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 212

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, the report makes a distinction between partisans and
 2Jews, so they were -- it is clear that the Jews were
 3killed in the course of anti-partisan action, but they
 4were not identified as partisans.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am not making that suggestion. The only
 6substantive question I do want answered properly is what
 7was the scope of the order to kill all the Jews? Was it
 8just all the Jews within the operational area of this one
 9mounted troop?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, the problem is, this is not a mounted troop. It is
11the fighting elements of a regiment.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Reitenabteilung" is a mounted troop.
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, so this is, well, quite, this has quite a size, this
14mounted element, and this is one document we have where
15Himmler is very explicit. We know that he travelled
16through the occupied territories quite frequently and here
17we have actually this document, and I think it is a clear
18indication what he was saying to the other units during
19these other visits.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Here we have one case where we actually have written
22evidence for that.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you appreciate the reason I am asking the
24question, Dr Longerich, is if a signal is shown to us
25saying that Himmler has ordered all the Jews are to be
26shot, we want to know is he talking about all the Jews

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 1within the Third Reich or just all the Jews within
 2the ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have your answer about that. It is
 5 MR IRVING:     If the answer is clear. Very well. Page 35,
 6please. Does this not strike you as remarkable,
 7Dr Longerich, that every time we get an order from the
 8Fuhrer, that there is a Fuhrer befehl, it turns out to be
 9testimony 17 or 20 or 30 years later and there is nothing
10at all in the documents, even though we have seen
11documents like the one we have just been looking at, which
12talk about Himmler orders, there is nothing of a similar
13quality talking about a Hitler order?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     You are referring to a particular part of this page or?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 35, line 1.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, well, to make this -- I mean, I think I made my point
17very clear. I am trying here in this report, I am trying
18to show you that this was carried out on a systematic
19basis and, in order to link these events with Hitler's
20role, I think we -- this has been said yesterday -- have
21this Muller letter from 1st August which shows us that
22Hitler was quite aware of what was going on because he got
23on a continuous basis, he get the Einsatzgruppen meldung.
24And I think this is quite clear that he was informed about
26     I do not say, did not say, that I have here an

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 1explicit order with a letter head of Adolf Hitler and the
 2signature which says that he orders the killing of the
 3Russian Jews, but I think it has been established here,
 4quite clearly, that he was informed about these events.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to labour the point too much, but we do have
 6now, and we have been having it for the last four or five
 7weeks, document after document of this quality which
 8incriminates Himmler and people like him, but not one
 9single document of equal quality which incriminates
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am sorry to intervene again. You
12have made that point many, many times. It is accepted by
13Dr Longerich that there is not a Hitler Befehl in relation
14to these shootings. He has made it absolutely clear why
15he says that Hitler knew and approved what was going on.
16 MR IRVING:     On the basis of the Muller document ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is no point in asking that same
18question again and again. I know your point, there is not
19a Hitler order that anyone has found, so you need not ask
20that question again. I have the point. There is not a
21Hitler order.
22 MR IRVING:     Although, logically, there should be one found.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, there are all sorts of reasons why
24there may not be one, but there is not one. That is the
25point and you can, of course, develop that in your closing
26submissions. There no point in going on asking the

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 1question because you get the same answer that I think I
 2have heard three times from this witness already.
 3 MR IRVING:     The actual question was, is it not remarkable it is
 4always testimony 20 or 30 years after the event, like this
 5one here, which links it to a Hitler order which is
 6self-serving testimony.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I would not agree this is, you cannot say this is all
 8self-serving testimony because some of the people
 9interrogated are eyewitnesses, but this report is about
10the systematic nature. The first report we discussed
11yesterday is about Hitler's role. The aim of the report
12is to show you, give you an idea, about the systematic
13nature of this warfare. It is not the intention of this
14part of this report to actually prove Hitler's role.
15I mean, it is not the focus of the point. It is the one
16we discussed yesterday.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     For example, in this same paragraph, 3.3.2, if you would
18just go back over the page to the bottom of page 34, it is
19the indication that the order came from Ohlendorf. Was
20Ohlendorf dead at the time of this testimony?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Dead?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In 1969 he was dead, was he not?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. He was hanged in '48, was he not?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you ever get to see the private papers of Ohlendorf?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, they are not, I think, as far as I am aware, they are
26not publicly accessible.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     His widow has them.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. I know -- yes, sorry.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So once again they are saying, "Well, the other person who
 4knew, he is dead, unfortunately", so it is a very shaky
 5kind of testimony, is it not, so far as Adolf's
 6responsibility is concerned?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is, I mean, what I did here, I based this on an
 8analysis of the ereignismeldung and on -- and, in
 9addition, on the basis of evidence we have from
10testimonies. I think it is my obligation, my duty, to
11look at this testimony. I just cannot ignore them.
12Ohlendorf made, and I mention in the report here, he made
13quite remarkable statements. He never -- I mean, he was
14hanged by the Americans, but he never actually disputed
15the fact that his Einsatzgruppen killed 10,000 of Jews. I
16mean, this was, because this was confronted with the
17evidence which the ereignismeldung contained ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     We do not dispute that either here.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- he did not dispute it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you also rely on the ereignismeldung, but you said
21yesterday that only one of them shows it was sent to the
22Party Chancellory in Munich which is not exactly proof
23that Hitler saw it, is it?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, we went through this when I think I made it quite
25clear that not every ereignismeldung has a list of
26distribution, and I do not have a full picture of to whom

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