Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 25: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 212

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    Well, I mean, I spent here about 20 pages to describe the
 1They did not start on the same day, on the very same day,
 2for instance, the killing of children. It varies a little
 3bit between unit and unit. So I preferred this phrase
 4"pattern". It is not completely uniform. But it is a
 5standardized pattern.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     But not very systematic?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is a standardized pattern and I think it allows us to
 8say that this was a part of a system.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 26, the first three lines, we are dealing now with an
10explicit order of Himmler which, I suppose, is of
11significance. You say this is an explicit of
12Himmler. "All Jews must be shot. Jewish women to be
13driven into the swamp"?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say: "From a radio telegraph text we can read this".
16Now, what is your source for that? Is it the actual radio
17telegraph text?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, the radio telegraph text is quoted in the wording of
19the branch(?) record. The whole files of the branch
20record are kept in the State archive of [German]. I spent
21two days this summer actually to read this source and
22I can assure you that this document is in the files of
23this particular court case.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it an actual radio telegraph text or something recorded
25by or ----
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, actually it is a copy ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- remembered by?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     --- of the radio telegraph text. The original is kept in
 3the military archive in Feiberg.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have not provided the German text for us so it is ----
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I have not provided the German text for it.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, we have got the text.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would like to see it.
 8 MR IRVING:     It is quite important.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know which report this comes from, it
10might be Longerich, it might be Browning. I really cannot
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is important because I think it is
13Mr Irving's present position that there was never a stage
14when all Jews were ordered to be shot.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Which document is it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is note 119, top of page 26.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, well, then the date is 1st August, same day
18as the Muller order.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not in N1, I do not think.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is page 48.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry. I missed it.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, 48. That is it, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have looked at this before.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know what this document is, mind, but the
25witness could tell us that, I expect.
26 MR IRVING:     It appears to be a genuine carbon copy, does it

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 1not? Yes, a carbon copy of a document.
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, I recall that in the -- I have seen the copy. This
 3is here a [German]. This is the German, the document,
 4this is the standard German form for a radio message. So
 5the document is there and I have seen that and there is no
 6doubt that this is authentic.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is very difficult to cross-examine on this document
 8because it is so skimpy.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will have to put your case.
10 MR IRVING:     I have to.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you saying that Himmler ----
12 MR IRVING:     Are you satisfied that this document accurately
13reflects an order of Heinrich Himmler?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. He was there, he was there. At this stage he was in
15the appropriate marches.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who is the SS Obersturmfuhrer who is an adjutant who has
17signed this document, to your knowledge?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is in the -- the court managed to identify this man.
19I cannot recall the name at the moment.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he on Himmler's staff on or somebody else's staff?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is -- no, he is the adjutant of the Reitenabteilung.
22The Reitenabteilung, this is the cavalry, the mounted
23cavalry, battalion actually of this SS cavalry regiment.
24The name of the adjutant is known and I just not recall
25the name at the moment, but he was identified in the court

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     The question I am asking is, he is not Himmler's adjutant
 2who is sending the order?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, but Himmler was there. At this time he actually gave
 4the order verbally and this was then included into this
 5telegram and the message was sent.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was the range of this order, do you think? Did it
 7relate just to the activities of this particular mounted
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, this relates ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Mounted troop?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This relates clearly to the killing, systematic killing,
12of Jews in the -- this was what they called a pacification
13action, and these are the guidelines given for this
14pacification action to actually, well, clean the
15appropriate swamps.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So we are actually referring to the Pripyat marshes
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am trying to be as objective as possible. I cannot say
19that this is -- you cannot read it as a general, you
20cannot read it as a general order.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     My question was, what was the range of the order? Was it
22just directed to this one troop, this one mounted troop,
23all Jews within their reach, presumably?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, it was actually an order given here to the mounted
25elements, so that is the best translation of the cavalry
26Regiment 2. These were about, I think, 800 or 1,000 men

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 1and they carried then out this action. And you can see
 2I have quoted this on page 25, this was part of the action
 3to kill, in which they killed 14,178 Jews, as they
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the scale of partisan warfare in the
 6Pripyat marshes?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     At this stage, at this very early stage, at the beginning
 8of August, there was actually the scale of partisan
 9activity in the Pripyat marshes was low. What actually
10happened was that some actually, well, some soldiers of
11the Red Army managed to get into the Pripyat marshes and
12tried to hide there. But the partisan activity was at
13this stage relatively low compared with what would happen
14in '42 or'43.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Had Marshal Stalin issued early in July a broadcast
16proclamation to the entire Russian civilian population to
17rise up in arms against the invaders?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, that is true, but, on the other hand, they were no
19organization and preparation made for this kind war, so
20they had to improvise that and they were at this stage not
21actually able to fight an organized partisan warfare
22against the Germans.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the suggestion is, just so that it is
24clear, that the 14,000 odd Jews who were shot following
25this order were justifiably shot because they were

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