Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 192

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    Yes, because they have not been told from Berlin what
 1they had the Secretary of State, "We could like to deal
 2with the Jews on the spot, we do not want to send them to
 3the East, we would like to do it here". Then it goes on
 4in the Wannsee protocol. The various methods were
 5discussed how to solve the problem. Then they were
 6discussing what to do, poisoning, gassing, probably
 7executions. This is preWannsee. He was sure that they
 8were going to vernichtung the Juden, because it came back
 9from Berlin and heard the speech, but the method was
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not suggesting, although I am sure you quite
12accidentally gave the opposite impression, that in the
13Wannsee protocol there is any reference to killing at all,
14is there?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know whether we will go to the Wannsee conference
16in more detail.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The problem with all of this is that it is
18not Mr Irving's fault at all, because he has been
19confronted with this glossary and I can understand why he
20is going through it, but to me it is unhelpful, this whole
21exercise. We are coming across odd documents from 39 or
2235 or 43.
23 MR IRVING:     Rather the same thing happened with the previous
24witness, my Lord. We came across topics that the witness
25urgently wanted to talk about and which no doubt will get
26raised later on.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is better to look at these words
 2when we come across them in the context of examining the
 3substantive issues rather than having a kind of linquistic
 4sequence of questions.
 5 MR IRVING:     That would be the other way of slicing the same
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know it would. I say again -- it is not
 8intended critically of you at all -- that darting from
 9one document to another is not I think particularly
11 MR IRVING:     I am very rapidly going through the remaining part
12of the glossary to see if there are any important points
13to take. The fact that Robert Lie used a word a certain
14way does not mean to say necessarily that that was the
15standard meaning of the word?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I am only referring to Lie. He was one of the top Nazis
17and he used the term in a quite open way. I find our
18discussion quite interesting but ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. In that case that finishes the with the
20glossary I think. I may wish to come back to it. Dealing
21now with your first report, Dr Longerich, page 10, you say
22there in your opening sentence that there can be no doubt
23that Hitler's behaviour during his entire political career
24was characterised radical anti-Semitism.
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he always an anti-Semite, in your view, or did it come

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 1upon him in his youth?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think this way of radical anti-Semitism, which means
 3that he wants to basically remove the Jews from, let us
 4say, German soil, I think this is a product of the First
 5World War and appeared immediately after the First World
 6War. Other historians would argue that actually he learnt
 7this in Vienna, but I think one has more to emphasise.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     There have been all sorts of weird theories, have there
 9not, about where it came from?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, there are all kinds of theories. I think we are on
11safer ground if we look at the period after the First
12World War.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were all the top Nazi leadership equal in their
14anti-Semitism, or were some more anti-Semitic than
15others? Were some more motivated than others?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Quite clearly some more anti-Semitic than others.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Some were more homicidally anti-Semitic than others?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Obviously you have worked for 20 years now in the records
20so you must have gained some impression that you can tell
21us about, the kind of league table of anti-Semitism.
22Would Martin Bormann be high up the list of anti-Semitism
23as an active anti-Semite?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Absolutely, yes. Definitely.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Josef Goebbels, would he be more or less anti-Semitic
26than Bormann?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I have never thought about a kind of hierarchy, but
 2I think, if you look at the top Nazis, I think you can
 3fairly say that radical anti-Semites, people who wanted to
 4remove by any means the Jews from Germany, I think you
 5would count among them Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Bormann,
 6I think, and some others.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hermann Goring, for example, was always getting in trouble
 8because he had Jewish friends, did he not?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but the fact that one has Jewish friends does not
10necessarily exclude that one can be an anti-Semite or even
11a radical anti-Semite. I think probably Goring looked at
12this more from a kind of political or tactical point of
13view. I am not sure. I think the anti-Semitism of Goring
14and his role in the Final Solution has not been fully
15researched. That is all I can say to that.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Goebbels was the real mover and shaker, was he not? He
17was the propagandist, he was the little poison dwarf, the
18evil genius?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     He was definitely a radical anti-Semite, and he was trying
20to push forward anti-Semitic policy, this is right, but
21I would not make a kind of hierarchy where I would place
22Goebbels at the top.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     The reason why I am asking this is this. Goebbels, for
24example, would never have dreamed of employing a Jew on
25his staff or a half Jew on his staff, would he? I do not
26think he did.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I cannot say anything about his dreams, but I think he did
 2not, as far as I know.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is an English expression. Adolf Hitler of course did
 4have some half Jews on his staff, did he not?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I do not know. I cannot recall any names. Hitler?
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. His private chauffeur, Emile Morris. When it turned
 7out that Emile Morris was Jewish, did not Hitler protect
 8him and keep him on to the end?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I cannot recall this.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know Peter Hofmann, Professor Peter Hofmann?
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is a well-known Canadian German historian, is he not?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read his book, Hitler's Personal Security?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I know the book but I cannot recall this detail. I simply
16do not know.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it not strike you as odd that an anti-Semite like
18Hitler would not mind having a Jewish chauffeur, Emile
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I cannot comment on this story. I do not know whether it
21was an established fact that Morris was a Jew. I cannot
22comment on that. Again I would say, if you look into the
23history of anti-Semitism, the greatest anti-Semites had
24sometimes Jewish friends. They would say, well, this is
25my friend, he is an exception, he is not like others.
26This is a typical stereotype.

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