Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 192

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    Yes, but it is clear from, if you look at the following
 1Chelmno extermination camp and the gas used there.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Abschieben, which is No. 4, carries only the meaning of
 3deport really, does it not, or does it ----?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is the original meaning, I think.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Goebbels, for example, in his 27th March 1942 entry,
 6talks about the Abgeschobene Juden, of whom 60 per cent
 7would probably be liquidated.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which implies that the Abschiebung, the deportation, was
10not the killing, that was just what they used what came
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     You might be right in this case, but it is clearly said in
13his document what happened, so I think one of the key
14documents as far as Holocaust is concerned.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are now on No. 5, which is Vernichtung.
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, abschieben is not a very important word in
18this particular argument, would you agree?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think that, in a kind of hierarchy, I would not put it
20on the top.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Vernichtung is, however, quite important, is it
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have quoted in 5.1, the Langenscheidt version of the
25word, as destroy, annihilate or exterminate, presumably in
26that order.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is really destroying a thing, is it not, or if you can
 3regard a group of people as a thing, then it is destroying
 4a group of people?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     If you look at the group of people as a thing then, if you
 6make this ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     For example, Judentum is a body of Jews, a community of
 8Jews, is it not?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Again, I think that we have enough examples to discuss it
10with reference to a document. We do not have to speculate
11about the possible ways the terminology was used.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I quite agree.
13 MR IRVING:     You refer to Klausewitz?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     As defeating the enemy, you destroy the enemy?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. He is referring to, I think, an enemy army. So he
17is not referring just to people; he is referring, well, to
18an organization, and he is making it quite clear that the
19term "vernichtung" could mean, well, it could mean, as he
20said, annihilation of the enemy forces either by death or
21by injury or any other ways, either completely or merely
22to such an extent that the enemy no longer has the will to
23continue the fight. So I am trying to illustrate here
24that if the term "vernichtung" refers to an organization,
25it can have the meaning, you know, following Klausewitz,
26to kill all of them, to kill part of them, but basically

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 1to make sure that the organization, as such, is not able
 2to exist any more as an organization.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You could bankrupt somebody and he would be destroyed,
 4could you not?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, you can make all other kinds of connotations.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Take the army prisoner ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It all depends on the context.
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, you can make all kinds of combinations, but I think
 9the most interesting, I mean if I may suggest that the
10most interesting case is of course when it refers to the
11vernichtung of people, not of an organization, of Judentum
12but of Jews, then I think it becomes clear what the term
13actually meant.
14 MR IRVING:     You have referred to Adolf Hitler's speech of
15January 30th 1939 ----
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- in this context where he uses the word "vernichtung"?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, 5.6, footnote.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     We do not have the exact quotation.
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Unfortunately not.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     But the sense is, he said: If international finance Jewry
22once more succeeds in launching a new world war, then it
23will end not with the destruction of the European people,
24but with the destruction of, is it Judentum?
25 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Well, I have the quote in the first report.
26 MS ROGERS:     38.

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     38. Shall I read this again?
 2 MR IRVING:     I think it is an important passage.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, perhaps you should in that case.
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I will only read the second -- well, I should read the
 5whole passage: "In my life I have often been a prophet and
 6was generally laughed at. During my struggle for power it
 7was mostly the Jewish people who laughed at my prophecies
 8that I would some day assume the leadership of the state
 9and thereby of the entire folk, and then among many other
10things achieve a solution of the Jewish problem.
11I believe that in the meantime the then resounding
12laughter of Jewry in Germany is now choking in their
13throats. Today I will be a prophet again. If
14international Jewry within Europe and abroad should
15succeed once more in plunging the people's into a world
16war, then the consequence will be not the Bolshevization
17of the world and therewith a victory of Jewry, but on the
18contrary the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."
19     So "Jewry" is here in the German original
20Judentum, and the annihilation is the vernichtung,
21annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.
22 MR IRVING:     Yes. The words "on the contrary" you just
23interpolated that. They are not in the original, are
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Sondern".
26 MR IRVING:     Sondern, it just means "but"?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     But, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is the word "but" that comes in after a negative, is it
 3not, as in French? I am going to draw your attention to
 4the fact that this speech is on January 30th 1939?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Had not a few days earlier Adolf Hitler through Hermann
 7Goring as head of the four-year plan, appointed Reinhardt
 8Heydrich to set up an agency to speed the emigration of
 9the Jews from Germany?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. That is true, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. That was just four our five days previously, was it
12not, or about two weeks previously, something like that?
13It was one of the consequences of the Kristallnacht?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Shall I explain the context?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was that genuine or was that camouflage?
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sorry?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was the setting up of the Heydrich agency genuine or
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think this was at this stage genuine, but I think I have
20to explain the background, if you do not mind.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     You know there were international negotiations going at
23this time between the so-called international government
24for refugees and the German Government represented by
25Hischaft. So the idea was that actually one could, you
26know, force world Jewry, as the Nazis perceived it, to pay

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