Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 192

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 1 MR IRVING:     It can be either, my Lord. Here is one typical
 2example where the context does not really help us. I am
 3trying to establish that, from what we know, we do not
 4know whether they were killed on arrival or whether they
 5were put to work as slave labour as very large numbers or
 6what. So that document does not really help us.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     May I comment on that.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, of course.
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think that we know, not from the document, but, of
10course, we have enough information about Auschwitz to
11establish that, because these are guidelines; the general
12picture of what happens to Jews who were deported to
13Auschwitz after February 1943. So I think we could
14establish the context if we want to do so, but the
15selections and about sending people to gas chambers
16I think we have this information, and from this, I would
17then take this information and say that actually this
18makes it, I think, almost clear that the term evacuation
19here could include the killing of the people.
20 MR IRVING:     In fact, it means exactly what it says that has
21been evacuated to Auschwitz.
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think we could, in a way, extend our knowledge and go
23into this day of Auschwitz, and it is not that this is a
24dark area ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is not the time or place for that.
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     So, we could do research and I think that, in the end, we

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 1could come to the conclusion that this, in general, meant
 2the extermination of the people in the camp at Auschwitz.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I refer to the previous sentence beginning: "A report
 4of 26th December", in which the head of the police force
 5Saliter reported in detail about his experiences
 6accompanying and supervising the transport of 1,007 Jews
 7from the Rheinland to Latvia, is an entire report on the
 8of evacuation of Jews to Riga, is that right?
 9 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     In December 1941, what happened to these Jews who were
11deported to the Riga at that time?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     At this time, the Jews were actually sent to ghettoes or
13to camps.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     To the Jungfernhof camp?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     To the Jungfernhof camp or to the ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So they were not massacred on arrival, then?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Most of them were not massacred on arrival.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     What conclusion do you draw from the use of the word
19evacuation there, then?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Here, it says that the Jews -- I am trying to be cautious
21-- it says here that the Jews are going to be deported to
22Riga, and the document does not say that the Jews are
23exterminated on the spot. There is actually one reference
24in the Saliter report, where Saliter says that the
25collaborators, if I may call them so, in Latvia were quite
26astonished to see the Jews here because they said that you

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 1can Ausrotten them yourself in Germany. But I think they
 2were probably a little bit ahead at this time and in this
 3context, I could not say that the word evacuation would
 4necessarily include the killing of the people who were
 5sent to this place.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dr Longerich, we have actually seen a number of documents
 7over the last weeks from this December 1941 period,
 8indicating that these trainloads from the Reich to Germany
 9carried provisions and equipment for their first weeks in
10there camp on arrival there. So the evacuation here,
11would you accept, does actually mean evacuation then and
12not necessarily anything more sinister?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is what we call the second wave of deportations.
14This was about 21 trains to Riga and about, I think, seven
15or eight trains to Minsk which happened between November
161941 and February 1942, except the six trains where the
17people were shot on the spot in Kovno and in Riga, except
18these six trains where the majority of these people
19actually were not shot on the spot but they survived a
20couple of months, most of them, and they were provided
21with all kinds of things, with tools and so on, from the
22Jewish communities because they, some of them, maybe even
23the majority, I do not know, some of them may actually
24have thought that they were some sort of pioneers who were
25sent to the East. So I think this idea to provide them
26with tools and so on also includes a moment of an element

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 1of deception, giving them the idea that they actually can
 2start a new life somewhere in the East.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any proof for that. This is an important
 4point, I think. Do you have any proof that this was an
 5element of deception in inviting them it take
 6their appliances with them?
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think that the fact that 6,000 people were shot on the
 8spot gives you an idea there was a kind of, you know, a
 9kind of juxtaposition between the provision of these
10trains and actually what happened to those people. If
11I can explain this.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want really get into the police decodes business
13here, my Lord, because I think we will stick to the
14meaning of the words.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The cross-examination is notionally to do
16with the translation of words.
17 MR IRVING:     It is, entirely.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The trouble is you are chasing some of the
19uses. I understand why, Mr Irving; it is not a criticism
20of you, but the result is that it is a little bit
21scattered this cross-examination, and it is not a
23 MR IRVING:     I have two ways of doing it. Either I can follow
24my own plan or I can follow his own very useful glossary
25which he has provided for us, and as we all have the
26glossary, I think it is more useful if I follow his

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 1paragraphing rather than introduce yet further confusion.
 2But I am taking large leaps and bounds through it.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You have been confronted with the
 4glossary and I suppose you have to really to deal with it.
 5 MR IRVING:     Well I hope that is not implied criticism of my
 6dealing with it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a criticism at all of you, Mr
 8Irving, no.
 9 MR IRVING:     But if the Defence does seek to rely on these
10meaning of these words, then I have to try to shoot them
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know. Well, take your own course.
13 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 3.3, the evacuation to the Lodz ghetto
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which was referred to in the Gestapo report of June 9th.
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, the stages of the evacuation make it quite plain
19that were not actually being evacuated to their death, so
20they were initially evacuated somewhere else.
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but it is ----
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     They were transported to the special command.
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, but it is clear from, if you look at the following
24document, it is clear that they were deported to the
25extermination camp Chelmno. The Sonderkommando is the
26Sonderkammandolange which actually was responsible for the

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