Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 192

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    Sometimes we just do not have the context to judge,
 1is that right?
 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     We try our best to establish the context.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Sometimes when the Jews were sent just to ghettoes, that
 4is where the word "umgesiedelt" is used, is it not?
 5 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Give me please some kind of reference and I will comment
 6on it, because it is a very difficult subject because the
 7meaning, as you rightly said, changes and can change in
 8the same document. So I should refer, I should in my
 9answer refer to single documents.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, in paragraph 2.2, you refer to a Wehrmacht report.
11It is not even an SS report, is it?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the German Army was also involved in the camouflage.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     They replaced the word "shooting" with the handwritten
16word "resettlement"?
17 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is a rather pointless kind of change if it is
19possible for us years later to see both words written
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes. Obviously, this man was not very intelligent who did
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     In paragraph 2.4 you quite clearly give an example here
24where "Umsiedlung" is unambiguously used in its homicidal
25sense: "There are two pits there and groups of 10 leaders
26and men working at each pit relieving each other every two

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 2 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, and ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that is what you are talking about when you are talking
 4about the context, in context like that there is
 5undoubtedly no question?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, exactly.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     The clarity is beyond dispute, and it would take a lunatic
 8to say or to continue to argue that the word "Umsiedlung"
 9there does not mean that, it does not mean killing?
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I agree.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     But in the case of the key documents that we are looking
12at with Adolf Hitler, which is all that interests me
13really, we do not have that degree of clarity, do we?
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think I would like to suggest we should look at the
15documents and then we could ---- I think I should not make
16these general statements, I think I should always refer to
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think particularly in the light of that
19question, if there is a document, and I do not have one in
20mind, where Hitler uses the word "umsiedeln" ----
21 MR IRVING:     With that degree of clarity.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- Then it would be helpful to put it to the
23witness. I do not recollect if there is one or there is
25 MR IRVING:     What I am suggesting is that there is no such
26document with that degree of clarity.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there a Hitler document using the word
 3 MR IRVING:     I do not believe there is, my Lord, in which case
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then the point is academic.
 6 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will know that I do not attach much
 7important for my purposes. I attach more importance to
 8the words "Vernichtung" and "Ausrottung".
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on to Vernichtung; we have done
11 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     My list is not complete; it is just what I found.
12 MR IRVING:     In paragraph 3, page 3, we are dealing with section
133 now, Evakuieren.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do incidentally accept that the word "Umsiedlung"
16referred equally sometimes to the westward movement of
17ethnic Germans?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And similarly "Besiedlung" can be the resettlement, for
20example, we have a September 1942 document where Lublin is
21being besiedelt with Volksdeutschen?
22 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I will always say that I would like to prefer to see the
23document and not to speculate about this, but you may be
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Evakuierung" does not always mean the killing, does it?
26It does not always have homicidal context either, does it?

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It always depends on the context.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It usually means deportation under rough conditions
 3or sometimes?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Sometimes, yes, it also, you know, there was a scheme for,
 5what is the expression, Luftkriegsevakuierung ----
 6 THE INTERPRETER:     The evacuation from air raids.
 7 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In the context of air war, this was also the official
 8term. So it could be used in a different context.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you are really agreed about
10Evakuierung, that ----
11 MR IRVING:     On paragraph 3.2, we come to the 6th March 1942
12meeting where Eichmann is talking about the evacuation of
13the Jews to the East.
14 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second and third line it says: "Further evacuation of
1655,000 Jews", and you conclude that they are being sent to
17Auschwitz, and they should, you quote a document there,
18the Reich's security.
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No, I do not conclude that these Jews on 26th were sent to
20Auschwitz. One should, to make it clear, it would have
21been better to start on 20th with a new paragraph. This
22is a completely different issue.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     On 20th February, the Reich's Security Head Office issued
24guidelines on implementation of the evacuation of Jews to
25the East, Auschwitz Concentration Camp.
26 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And from that, you conclude that the evacuation of the
 2Jews to Auschwitz is a homicidal meaning, is it?
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think this is quite clear from the document that the
 4people were sent to Auschwitz and ordered to kill them
 5there. So the term evacuation then, particularly
 6after 1941, could just mean the deportation to a point but
 7it also could mean the deportation to this point plus the
 8killings of the people there. So, I think these two
 9interpretations are possible after 1941.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I will come to this later on, either today or
11tomorrow, are you familiar with the Ahnert document, the
12deportation from France?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     We will come to that when the time comes.
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you are not saying that all the people deported to
17Auschwitz were killed. You accept that some were used for
18slave labour?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think we went through the history of the Auschwitz. It
20was a combination of a slave labour camp and extermination
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I do not think, Mr Irving, that you are
23suggesting that, when guidelines are issued on the
24evacuation of Jews to the East (Auschwitz concentration
25camp), you are not suggesting, are you, that evacuation
26has a wholly non-homicidal connotation there?

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