Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition

Pages 6 - 10 of 192

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There will be more than that, I think.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     I need much more than one day.
 3 MR IRVING:     The words "at least" was in square brackets before
 4"one clear".
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do not think we want to have too long
 6because I am not sure that speeches are necessarily going
 7to need to go through everything, as it were, in detail;
 8it is more a question of references, I think, in a way.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I thought what I would do is a shortish sort of
10summary to read out in court with a file, which I would
11not read in court, of where necessary detailed reasoning
12and references just for your Lordship and, of course,
13eventually the public too.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     My feeling is it will be three plus days.
15Does that sound sensible to you?
16 MR IRVING:     That will suit my needs, yes.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is everything you want to say?
18 MR IRVING:     I think so, yes, my Lord.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So it is Dr Longerich, gentlemen?
20Mr Rampton, I have just been told there is an interpreter
21as well which rather surprises me because I thought
22Dr Longerich was giving expert evidence about the
23translation of German words into English.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. His English is very good, but there are
25times when his thought processes on a sophisticated or
26difficult question are in German, and when he feels

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 1uncertain that he may get quite the right nuance or
 2emphasis in English, and it is only for that. It is not
 3going to be a continuous process.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good,
 5 (Interpreter sworn)
 7< Examined by MR RAMPTON, QC.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dr Longerich, do sit down if you would
10 MR RAMPTON:     Dr Longerich, are your full names Heinz Peter
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Peter Longerich, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Peter Longerich, sorry. Have you written a report in two
14parts for the purposes of this case?
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you satisfied, so far as can you be, that the
17statements of fact contained in those reports are true?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And that, so far as those reports contain expressions of
20opinion, those opinions are fair and accurate?
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     That is correct.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You speak quite softly. I am a long way away at least.
23Can you try to speak up?
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I will do my best.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much. Please remain there to be

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 1 < Cross-examined by MR IRVING.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Good morning, Dr Longerich.
 3 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Good morning.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just to clarify one matter. Should I address you as
 5"Professor" or a "Doctor"?
 6 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Dr Longerich.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. My Lord, just by way of diversion,
 8I provided your Lordship the two documents of which you
 9asked translations. This is nothing to do with
10Dr Longerich, but you asked this and I should have drawn
11your attention to this. There is the translation of the
12Party court in 1939.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember, the Bericht.
14 MR IRVING:     It is the final paragraph which is in endless
15lawyer language. That is the official American
16translation of it.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will tell you what, let us come back to
18this and then we will at the same time work out where to
19put these documents.
20 MR IRVING:     Precisely, my Lord, and also there is a small
21bundle of documents which look like this beginning with
22some Gothic script on the front cover.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     With "ausrotten".
24 MR IRVING:     With "ausrotten", yes.
25     My Lord, just so you know where we are going
26today, I will advise your Lordship that I intend to deal

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 1today largely, and certainly this morning, with this
 2witness's statement on the meaning of words, this late
 3arrival, which I thought would be a useful way to kick off
 4and then we will turn to this formal reports.
 5     Before we do that, I just want to address one or
 6two matters concerning, through the witness, conduct of
 7the case and his credentials. Professor Longerich ----
 8 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Dr Longerich.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- Dr Longerich, I am sorry. You work for a number of
10years at the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte in Munich, did
11you not?
12 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     This is correct, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have to say yes clearly. A nodding will not do. You
14have to say yes otherwise ----
15 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- the microphone does not hear it. How many years did
17you work at the Institute of History in Munich?
18 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     From 1983 to 1989.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     1983 to 1989. That was, what, five years then?
20 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     About five years -- a little bit more.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     About five or six years. Did you have a special subject
22you were working on there?
23 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I worked on a project called condition of the files of the
24Party Chancellory.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Martin Bormann files, the files of the Party

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 1 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes I edited the second part of this edition.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The Party Chancellory files no longer existed and
 3they were reconstituted, is that right?
 4 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     It is an attempt to reconstruct the lost files of the
 5Party Chancellory, so I edited about 80,000 pages of these
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     A spectacular task. So that gives you a very good
 8overview over the whole of the domestic life of Nazi
10 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     I think it gave me a good insight into the day to day
11operation of the bureaucracy in the Nazi State.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     And into the kind of language they used?
13 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes, of course.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And into the hierarchy and the various rivalries and
16 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Exactly.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was friction between the top Nazis a major element of the
18Third Reich?
19 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Absolutely.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     [German] -- in other words ----
21 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- jealousies between the different ministries and
24 A. [Dr Heinz Peter Longerich]     In-fighting and these things, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you, from your knowledge of other governments, think
26it was more or less than other governments around that

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